why no epic levels for dieties?????

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Nightfall mate!

So you think then a great wyrm force dragon and/or a prismatic great wyrm wouldn't harm Tiamat that much?

Making full use of her Divine Abilities (Discounting Annihilating Strike which is broken and should only be allowed at DR11 anyway) Tiamat should win...The Prismatic Great Wyrm needs to do 1500 damage before it can bypass Tiamats Divine Shield and thats only for starters!

Tiamat is about the equivalent of x4 72nd-level Epic characters.

The Prismatic Great Wyrm is about equal to x4 60th-level characters.

How about an advanced one Krusty mate? Just curious.

Looks like about +4 ECL per advancement (I think?). If so, 6 would take it above Tiamat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there zhouj!

Tiamat and Bahamut's stats appeared in the Manual of the Planes and their CR was 25 .

Minus their Divine Ranks Tiamat and Bahamut are about ECL 51/52 = CR 32/33

In the D&DG book, it appears they would be at least CR 46-50+.

So far my formula for determining ECL/CR in Asgard magazine (Issue #6) has given excellent results.

Both Tiamat and Bahamut work out at CR42.

If anyones interested in the article:

http://www.d20reviews.com/Natural20/asgard.html

As for calculating CR for gods, I really don't think that 1 Divine Rank is equal to +1 CR more like +2 or +3 CR.

Divine Rank 0 = ECL +8
Each subsequent Divine Rank = ECL +4

Corellon Larethnian's CR, I estimate would be around CR 97. Zeus would be slightly higher.

Zeus ECL 158
Corellon ECL 157

Both CR49 still though.

You should see Thor's strength though...92!!!

Thors Belt probably gives him +4 ECL.

Thor 60 HD/Levels + DR18 + Belt = ECL 144 = CR 48 (same as Odin)

Anway, someone should roll-up a 100th level character to test this theory...

I have done. Although I used the 71st-level character they preview some months ago.

A 100th-level character is only CR 42.

The CR for the great wyrm prismatic dragon is 66 with further advancement possible.

Take WotCs Challenge Ratings with a pinch of salt!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Joshua!

Couldn't possibly combine the two books. ELH is already probably the longest supplement released by WotC at right about 320 pages.

You could probably place the entire Deity mechanics and the D&D Pantheon in about 80 pages.

I suspect if you removed a lot of the Prestige Class updates in the ELH (anyone care to divulge a Chapter/page count?) you would free up a lot of space. Remove a few more for duplicated Feats...etc.

Maybe they could have called such a book Legends & Lore?

Then released Deities & Demigods using that material but with a lot less space devoted to Deity mechanics.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Lady Dragon mate!

Upper crust,yes your right I forgot the 20 level outsider so that makes Zeus a minimum of 70th level all the more my point.It difficult to say what his CR would be I think over 100 for certain.

Difficult but not impossible...

Zeus: ECL 158/CR49. Therefore Zeus is equal to a 158th-level character or a party of x4 120th-level characters.

As for the dragon the GreatWyrm Prismatic Dragon has a CR of 66 and he can possible go higher so Like I said I don't know who would win in a fight Tiamat or the prismatic dragon. I think Tiamat needs to be beefed up a bit.

As given, my moneys on Tiamat, but a difference of CR+3 is not a sure thing.

I agree it would have been nice to see the Gods with Epic Levels/Capabilities 'right off the bat' though.

 

[zhouj]

ECL's and CR's

What exactly is the ECL? I know it is equalivent to a level but the ECL never seems to equal the CR and the other books state that +1 level=+1 CR. No offense, but I sorta trust WotC more on the CR's for the non-deific Tiamat and Bahamut that appear in the Manual of the Planes. . Anyway, how can Zeus be CR 49 when he has 50 PC levels and 19 divine ranks? If any of this is in one of the campaign-setting books or your Asgard article, I would prefer that you please refer to somewhere I can find this info, preferably without me having to dish out another $40 for another supplment.

 

[Henry]

Talk about numbers that make your head swim...

I don't see much fuss, myself. It really seems to be a "tempest in a teapot" that Exodus refers to. For me, it really doesn't make much difference.

I NEVER plan to use the Deities and Demigods; I DO plan to use the Epic Level Handbook. How's that for a case example?

Why? Because I do not need rules for gods in my home-brew campaigns. Gods cannot be challenged through physical means in my campaign - only intellectual ones. However, I have two known NPC's running around in my world that at 66th level (using 1E D&D rules). Using the progression of the old spell progression charts, they could cast around 10 to 12 spells of each level per day. I would enjoy working these characters up for Epic levels, just to see what they look like under 3E, although they do not appear in active roles in the campaign any longer.

Are there any more Epic individuals running around in my campaign? I'm not saying, because the players will have to find out on their own...

 

[Nightfall]

Thanks Krusty mate! Btw, I do agree it's a little odd that something as powerful as Annhiliating strike, is available to a lesser god...but I guess that's just the way it works.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: ECL's and CR's

Hi zhouj mate!

What exactly is the ECL?

Effective Character Level.

I know it is equalivent to a level but the ECL never seems to equal the CR and the other books state that +1 level=+1 CR.

That only works up to about 20th-level.

Each level the percentage of character improvement declines.

No offense, but I sorta trust WotC more on the CR's for the non-deific Tiamat and Bahamut that appear in the Manual of the Planes.

Challenge Ratings are far from WotCs strong point!

I take offense that you would take their word over mine before you read my article in Asgard magazine.

Feel free to get Skip Williams over here to debate the matter on behalf of WotC - I'm in the mood to lay the Immortal Smackdown on someone!

I look forward to him explaining how a 100th-level character is equal to 4 x 96th-level characters, and 16 x 92nd-level characters!? As well as how a 100th-level character would not get any XP for defeating a 91st-level character!?

Even better he can explain a Solars CR of 19!?

Anyway, how can Zeus be CR 49 when he has 50 PC levels and 19 divine ranks?

Simple.

Challenge Rating is derived from 4 characters of CR 'x' being equal to 1 character of CR 'x+4'.

The higher you ascend the less difference a single level makes!

All this is explained rurther in the article.

If any of this is in one of the campaign-setting books or your Asgard article, I would prefer that you please refer to somewhere I can find this info, preferably without me having to dish out another $40 for another supplment.

Asgard magazine is a free online magazine. Created here by Morrus and Ranger Wickett from ENWorld (among others)

You can download it here:

http://www.d20reviews.com/Natural20/asgard.html

My Challenge Ratings article is in issue #6. I welcome any and all feedback.

Incidently because D&Dg is not OGL yet we could not use the term 'Divine Rank'.

Consider:
Divine Rank 0 = +8 ECL
Each subsequent DR = +4 ECL

eg. Divine Rank 5 = +28 ECL

 

[zhouj]

A lesser god is still a god for all considerations. And 1 divine rank is an awful lot of power and I think it probably would be enough to destroy a building or magic sword.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Re: Re: ECL's and CR's

Challenge Ratings are far from WotCs strong point!

I take offense that you would take their word over mine before you read my article in Asgard magazine.

Feel free to get Skip Williams over here to debate the matter on behalf of WotC - I'm in the mood to lay the Immortal Smackdown on someone!

I look forward to him explaining how a 100th-level character is equal to 4 x 96th-level characters, and 16 x 92nd-level characters!? As well as how a 100th-level character would not get any XP for defeating a 91st-level character!?

Even better he can explain a Solars CR of 19!?

And I take offense to the idea that you know their system that they created from scratch better than they do, but hey, you go right along thinking that.

Of course, UK, I think it's been firmly established that you and I are diametrically opposed in all things, and that I only exist to make your life more difficult.

Ah, it's been so long since I've had a nemesis...

*all in good fun, of course*