Why no love for WotC? (and why now?)

I like Wotc's products, for the most part, although I will admit that there are several books that while decent could have been much better. Some of their latest products have been great, I really enjoyed DMG II, for example.

That said with the slew of 3rd party publishers you can get great books from all over the place. It was daunting when I first picked up the hobby as you never knew what would be good but reading reviews here from guys like Crothian I have found several sources of great material. (Phil Reed's work comes to mind.) Then having a guy like Monte Cook leave Wotc and start producing his own stuff has given many people reason to turn from Wotc. Mike Mearls was fastly becoming a 3rd party legend before he hired on and is one of the most respected guys in the industry. Which he attained without working for the biggest company.

I like Wotc myself but I understand why people don't.

-Shay
 

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Guess some people "just got to fight the man". Whatever.

I thought 3.5 way way too early. I could have been happy with an eratta-inated spell list, and an Unearthed Arcana for 3.0 chock full of most of the goodness that is there in it, plus the 3.5 style cover, weapon sizing, lack of facing, etc.. as alternate systems. Really. It could have been that easy.

So, guess it was:

A) Post errata and put out a UA with the 3.5 way of doing things for those who needed to do so.

--or--

B) Print new core books, and create a new half edition upgrade.

Guess the business model supported B).

But even after that, I wouldn't say I had a hate-on for Wizbro. They're just kinda there. They produce the core books and SRD which I use, and that's about it to me. I look at their products from time-to-time, but really, the Warlock is about the only thing I've even raised an eyebrow in a "hey, cool!" kinda way in a long, long time.
 

Buttercup said:
I don't have a hate-on for WotC. I still buy their products when they interest me, it's just that more and more frequently their products don't interest me.
  • I'm not interested in Eberron, because it seems too influenced by manga and comic books, neither of which appeal to me.
  • I'm not interested in psionics or planar stuff.
  • I prefer a more tradional game, that takes its antagonists from real world myth and culture, rather than bizarre, over-the-top monsters.
  • I have absolutely no interest in collectible minis, nor in the skirmish game.
I realize that lots of people do like these things. Heck, WotC does their market research, so if they're producing this sort of product, it's because they know it will sell like gangbusters. But it has become quite clear that I'm not their target market. On the other hand, Green Ronin and Necromancer continue to produce products that do appeal to me, so in the long run, all WotC is doing for me is saving me money.;)

I really wish we lived closer together so we could play in each other's games.
 

No hate-on for Wizards here. I think 3.5 was unnecessary and not really worth buying for what it offered, but that's minor, IMO. I've just been playing D&D for umpteen years now and want to play some other types of games: superhero, Call of Cthulhu, sci-fi, etc. I've gotten the impression that there's nothing new under the sun with d20, or at least, nothing to make me salivate the way new releases used to. Call it supplement overload. Playing a couple of other systems (Hero, in particular) kind of opened my eyes that there are other systems out there that are just as playable and just as interesting.
 


Buttercup said:
I don't have a hate-on for WotC. I still buy their products when they interest me, it's just that more and more frequently their products don't interest me.
  • I'm not interested in Eberron, because it seems too influenced by manga and comic books, neither of which appeal to me.
  • I'm not interested in psionics or planar stuff.
  • I prefer a more tradional game, that takes its antagonists from real world myth and culture, rather than bizarre, over-the-top monsters.
  • I have absolutely no interest in collectible minis, nor in the skirmish game.
I realize that lots of people do like these things. Heck, WotC does their market research, so if they're producing this sort of product, it's because they know it will sell like gangbusters. But it has become quite clear that I'm not their target market. On the other hand, Green Ronin and Necromancer continue to produce products that do appeal to me, so in the long run, all WotC is doing for me is saving me money.;)
My personal view of the situation is very similar, with the sole exceptions that I like to read some of the planar stuff, though I generally don't use it in my games, and that I'd replace Malhavoc for Green Ronin. This is no criticism of WotC. I just think that I don't belong to their target market.
 

Interesting. I had hope that this being a "neutral" messageboard, that there would be more hate posts here. I think them posters think this is entrapment but I know they're out there. :]
 


I don't hate WotC, but I am bored with many of their offerings and uninterested in others (yes, there are differences between these groups). I've been gaming now for 30 years (well, 30 years come Labor Day) and have moved far away from my early grab-treasure-from-dungeons days. WotC represents vanilla gaming to me -- fine in its own regard, but not nearly as interesting as other offerings.

WotC puts out the core rulebooks. Good. That is what all the D20 stuff branches off from. As such, they are providing a framework. Then they have splat books for the various classes, most of which feel boring to me. Just nothing to really get me going or excite me. Not bad, just not very flavourful. Then they have Forgotten Realms and Eberron, neither of which is my cuppa in the slightest. I'm sure they are great for others, but not for me. Too magical, too over-the-top for my tastes. Most of the D20/D&D monsters annoy me - they do not feel mythological or legendary in the least, but more like constructs set up specifically to get around particulars in the rules, creatures created because of a loophole rather than because of an organic feel. I have always loathed the planes and the Great Wheel - they just annoy me. And then again I tend to prefer low-level play, thus any product aimed at anything much about 10th level loses all interest for me. And, as I have said many times, I got into rpgs to get away from miniatures. Due to this the over-emphasis on minis and boards really, really cheeses me off. And the notion of "collectible" minis, rather than individual offerings, just feels like a bad marketing scheme, rather than anything aimed at helping out the customers.

I felt that 3.5 was a mistake. Like many in the vocal minority, I felt it was indeed a half-a**** edition, not really a full expansion. Some of the rules changes were good, others were bad, many were of no serious consequence. But due to the change a lot of 3.0 material became "outdated". Yet even in the wake of this many of those who love WotC get highly annoyed when talk about 4th edition comes out. Personally, I feel that WotC brought such talk on themselves simply by releasing 3.5.

Now there are other companies out there that I feel are producing new, highly flavourful, and interesting material. WotC, by its very nature, has to play things a bit conservative, not moving away from Vancian magic, the core races, and the rest. This is not bad, simply an observation. A company like Malhavoc or Green Ronin, however, is free to play around and experiment a bit more. In many ways they have to push the boundaries more; if they do not, they are simply going to be lost next to WotC and its marketshare. Many other "3rd Party" companies have folded or thrown in the towl on their D20. Why? Because they produced nothing distinctive, nothing that really pushed the envelope. The successful "3rd parties", however, are working in the shadow of WotC - they are succesful because D20 sells well. They will always, and necessarily, be lower in their sales simply because they are offering variants on a highly successful core product. Variant products are almost always less successful. Still a product like Iron Heroes or Hamunaptra will always excite certain people looking for something outside of the ordinary offerings.

So, no real hate here. No real love either. Judge that as you will.
 

Turjan said:
My personal view of the situation is very similar, with the sole exceptions that I like to read some of the planar stuff, though I generally don't use it in my games, and that I'd replace Malhavoc for Green Ronin. This is no criticism of WotC. I just think that I don't belong to their target market.
Target market? I think the market is too diverse to produce anything other that a "largest minority" sort of target. <shrugs> Glad I don't have a marketing job.
 

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