Why Not Magic?

[doctorbadwolf]

I'll freely admit I'd not read the middle of the thread, but by reading this, the question you're actually asking (what's needed to make people decide to not take magic) is the opposite of the one I was reading (why would people not take magic when there's no reason obvious in the setting not to). At the least, I think I can reframe what I was talking about in a more useful way in that context.

From the perspective of building a game world and it's supporting mechanics, those are the same discussion, if not the same question. I'm also curious about what motivates characters in general, and about how worlds impact what sort of characters make sense and how far it makes sense or not to bend the worldbuilding to the preferences of players.

I suspect what you need to do is to decide whether you're more interested in the question of what Doyalist (player based) or Watsonian (character based) reasons you want there. While they're not entirely disentangles, I suspect the Doyalist ones are going to be stronger on the whole (because they'll still likely matter to players who are very focused on character level design decisions, whereas the Watsonian ones are unlikely to matter strongly to those who make them primarily on how the character will play).

They're both important. As with much of life, simplicity is an illusion and the answer is a state of tension somewhere between two opposing states.

(Though its still not irrelevant for me to note some players will simply decide not to take magic for reasons that may or may not be easily related to any reason on either level, simply because they have personal issues relating to magic in games in either direction that will trump anything else).

An example of a Watsonian reason that might not impact some players at all is that magic is known or reputed to be a danger to your immortal soul--but in a game without resurrection, if that only matters after death some players will justify taking it anyway if its useful, because it has no practical impact on the play cycle, unless there's strong enough social impact from that fact that its effectively a vague mechanical penalty.

Sure. Players will do what they want. A game that seeks to not be very narrowly about magicians in a world that doesn't know magic is real (though I'd love to see more good ones that don't involve a magic school) but where magic is real should probably investigate how to make such characters make sense in the world if that game is going to support them.

For instance, in dnd 5e, there isn't much reason in most published worlds, or the default flavor of the books. Magic isn't so rare that there aren't orders of magic knights, and they don't seem to give up any martial efficacy in comparison to fully mundane knights, it doesn't harm the user, it has no risk of blowback, and there is no suggestion that those who learn it lose anything, but there are several classes that seem to learn to use magical abilities, and all but a couple classes have subclasses with flavor amenable to having learned magic via study and/or practice. I think that part of the reason that bugs a lot of people, in addition to there not being enough non-magical subclasses for the not-necessarily-magic classes for their tastes, is that it makes it harder to present a world where magic is extremely rare and most of history's heroes had no magic, and the number of player options with overt magic makes the game feel like magic is everywhere, which can make it feel off to play joe the mundane fighter.

This was actually inspired by a player talking about how they feel about fighters in 5e, and talking with them about possibly homebrewing more magic countering stuff into the game, with the flavor that it's easier to learn how to do that stuff if you haven't exposed your body and mind to a lot of magic, giving the world a reason to have fully mundane heroes of exceptional skill and power. Not just "it's allowed so you can" but a positive, distinct, in-world reason that it makes sense to have martial traditions that lack any magic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Its going to be a hard row to hoe because so many incarnations of D&D have magic that's so strong. In a non-classed system you can sometimes sort-of make the trade off worthwhile by making magic require a lot of buy in, but that's not an easy thing to do in a strongly class based system.

D&D magic is also very…rocket tag? Like, it’s powerful, but if it doesn’t land, usually it either just fizzles or is not particularly effective.

So, being able to gain resistance, or being able to gain an ability to attack spellcasters as an interrupting reaction with special training, could be a way to go.

Well, a straightforward one would be to make resistance to magic in general easier for non-magical entities, but there's a lot of potential ripple effects there that make that tricky to get right.

Yeah I think it’s probably simpler, for D&D 5e at least, to make it a set of player options along with some NPC features you can easily add to existing critters.

A couple feats and maybe a fighting style would help at a low effort floor, while subclasses for the less magical classes would really bring the idea into the light, but would take a lot more work.

 

[nevin]

Absolutely.


This is why I like magic skills tbh. In my game you can make yourself run faster with magic, but it’s prolly easier to just practice running, and you’ll run even faster if you do both.

I really wish there was a fighter archetype that was just “soldier/knight trained in a world where magic is common”.

I definitely prefer it as magic that bolsters skill use, but I dig what you’re saying.

Fair enough

Yeup.

That sounds fun.

Yep.

But if the setting assumes magic can be taught, it’s odd that knights and blacksmiths don’t have simple magics as part of their training.

Like the Dark Sword books, a bit. Interesting

unless magic is rare enough that being a knight or blacksmith would be the less powerful or profitable path. Also with knights it would depend on how it fit the code of honor. Would it be ok for a knight with magical powers to duel with a knight that didn't have them?

but if magic were common enough Id imagine anyone with minor talent would learn to use it. then your blacksmith could produce flame to start the fire, or even cast minor enchantments to make +1 armor if they had the talent.

The final consideration is what is the cultural view of magic. Do magicians get burned at the stake? are they ostracized by normal society?
Or are they looked up to for what the good ones can do? Even if they are productive members of society, they are probably viewed, best case, as the weird people who make deals with strange outsiders and mess with reality. Worst case potential devil worshippers that could turn on you at any moment.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Do magicians get burned at the stake? are they ostracized by normal society?
Or are they looked up to for what the good ones can do? Even if they are productive members of society, they are probably viewed, best case, as the weird people who make deals with strange outsiders and mess with reality. Worst case potential devil worshippers that could turn on you at any moment

Well the thread OP assumes fairly common magic, and that said magic is practical, useful, and has advantages and disadvantage compared to mundane tech/skill, but the two compliment eachother.

In such a world, I don’t think such attitudes will be common. People adapt to things that benefit them pretty quickly and enthusiastically.

 

[nevin]

Well the thread OP assumes fairly common magic, and that said magic is practical, useful, and has advantages and disadvantage compared to mundane tech/skill, but the two compliment eachother.

In such a world, I don’t think such attitudes will be common. People adapt to things that benefit them pretty quickly and enthusiastically.

Ok then Poul Anderson's Operation Chaos is a good example of a modern world where magic and tech came up together. I love that story I wish he'd made a series out of it. I love the electronic Flash assemblies that create "moonlight" to allow the Lycanthrope special forces to transform whenever they want.

 

[GMMichael]

This was actually inspired by a player talking about how they feel about fighters in 5e, and talking with them about possibly homebrewing more magic countering stuff into the game, with the flavor that it's easier to learn how to do that stuff if you haven't exposed your body and mind to a lot of magic, giving the world a reason to have fully mundane heroes of exceptional skill and power. Not just "it's allowed so you can" but a positive, distinct, in-world reason that it makes sense to have martial traditions that lack any magic.

In-world reason: the further you stay from black magic is the less it can affect you. Or, stepping into the magic pool means you're gonna get wet.

For another context: Modos RPG has player- and character-based reasons to avoid magic, which can be used by any PC by assigning a skill point (gained each character level) on the desired power.

Player: casting spells ("powers") adds complexity to the game that can be avoided by eschewing magic. Each spell has a small set of attributes that must be observed, and players must calculate (or roll) a bonus to be added to the spell-casting roll. In addition, spell-casting doesn't become a very good career choice until players make wise perk selections to support it. Fighters, on the other hand, can just choose a weapon and start swinging.*

Character: spell-casting has a cost, and if it's not done right, it can injure or kill a character. Also, since PCs don't get oodles of skill points, choosing to learn a spell can have a significant opportunity cost of another skill.

* Combat can be really simple, but successful fighters develop much better tactics than "start swinging."

 

[Garthanos]

Just recently reading a book where 3 of the main characters could be non-magic flavor heros in a context where the powerful are all magical.
1 used extraordinary amounts of enchantments his wife runs a enchanters guild . The two others were mostly reticent (but subtly really using magic). One being trained to be super swordsperson using anti magic they can sense magic and know how to fight magical beings and do many basically invisible things to block it and enhance their skill persistently and powerfully (but powerful mystics point out they too are doing magic) and the other reticent to rely on it because he thought it made him weak but he would call on deep reserves to do impossible things, that at first he thought weren't magic. Basically the 2 non-magic ahem superheros eventually realise they work different forms of magic or manifest them in unusual non-standard ways.

 

[PhiloPharynx]

I like the option of low-/non-magical PCs because I don't automatically assume that the world is one with fairly common (or safe) magic. Personally, I like to be able to twist that "magical setting" dial down, and still have plenty of options for PCs. Yes, that's not "default" gonzo-style D&D, but low-magic is a common fantasy trope, so it'd be nice to do it out of the box.

But... Your question assumes a magical setting. In that case, I think you're probably right: It probably is strange to prefer a character with no magic. I mean, I can think of a few RP rationales (eg, some philosophical order that eschews magic use). But aside from stuff like that, if magic really is the most effective tool in a setting, it does seem strange not to use that tool.

One problem with that is that I haven't seen many games be able to "turn the magic dial" up and down without problems. If you build the game around magic, then you have to figure out how to replace the systems that magic accomplishes. Healing, condition removal, etc. If you build without magic, then you have a magic system that adds new power to the system, or it ends up being flashy showmanship with no real oomph.

You can adjust a little bit, but too much breaks the game.

 

[Bluenose]

One problem with that is that I haven't seen many games be able to "turn the magic dial" up and down without problems. If you build the game around magic, then you have to figure out how to replace the systems that magic accomplishes. Healing, condition removal, etc. If you build without magic, then you have a magic system that adds new power to the system, or it ends up being flashy showmanship with no real oomph.

You can adjust a little bit, but too much breaks the game.

There should be a point between "flashy showmanship" and "has real oomph" which also doesn't make mundane characters irrelevant. The problem comes when you have to satisfy people whose idea of what's mundanely possible varies, and whose idea of what "real oomph" means differ even more. Add in the people who want high-level characters to match mythical heroes (Beowulf, Achilles, or even the really powerful ones like Hercules or Arjuna) and that some people don't want that at all. I don't really believe it's possible to satisfy those different desires with one game without making that game thoroughly abstract (where different characters may have different images of what's happening in an encounter), but that isn't to everyone's taste. However it's probably a lot easier to decide where you're going to set your "scale of epicness" for characters and design the game around that than try to design a game that handles multiple different power scales.

 

[Darth Solo]

Why won't players choose spellcasters?

Because casting spells has a COST that other classes don't have to deal with.

1. What if casting a spell drains one year of life?
2. What if casting a spell drains Stamina/Endurance?
3. What if casting a spell takes twice as long as attacking with a weapon?
4. What if casting a spell can go wrong and harm the party?
5. What if casting a spell requires a successful ability/skill roll to work?

The way Gygax balanced casters with D&D was to limit their HP, combat ability, spell strength and Experience growth. He forced magic-users to depend on the rest of the party because one arrow or dagger strike could delete the caster. It made sense but WotC empowered casters in a way that imbalanced the game.

Limit your casters and you can create balance.