MerakSpielman
First Post
It could also be fun to have an "evil organization" where only the top couple leaders are evil, and the rest of the people following their orders are neutral or good and don't know their leaders are corrupt.
Why not simply slaughter them?
- Thread starter -=Xar=-
- Start date
spyscribe
First Post
Is it possible to tip the characters off that they've been targeted for assassination?
Maybe a henchman of the evil organization turns informant or is bought off, or a rumor of what's going to happen reaches a trusted ally, or their would-be assassin nails a black rose to the door of their hide-out. If you give the PCs a little warning, then they can choose to either run for the proverbial hills, or take steps to level the playing field.
Either way, the evil organization isn't pulling punches, but the chances of an all-out slaughter are greatly reduced. Plus, it puts the ability to act back in the hands of your players, which is where you probably want it.
Maybe a henchman of the evil organization turns informant or is bought off, or a rumor of what's going to happen reaches a trusted ally, or their would-be assassin nails a black rose to the door of their hide-out. If you give the PCs a little warning, then they can choose to either run for the proverbial hills, or take steps to level the playing field.
Either way, the evil organization isn't pulling punches, but the chances of an all-out slaughter are greatly reduced. Plus, it puts the ability to act back in the hands of your players, which is where you probably want it.
Funeris
First Post
And if you combine the last two suggestions:
Maybe the henchman turned informant is the second-in-command and wants the first-in-command's job...in which case he warns the heroes...gives them tips etc so that he can take the job...
This is also good because:
This would-be-BBEG now has helped the party out. So he is in a position to build an alliance with them. Or at the very least, manipulate them into wiping out other...competitors
Maybe the henchman turned informant is the second-in-command and wants the first-in-command's job...in which case he warns the heroes...gives them tips etc so that he can take the job...
This is also good because:
This would-be-BBEG now has helped the party out. So he is in a position to build an alliance with them. Or at the very least, manipulate them into wiping out other...competitors
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barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Well then I guess they're hooped.-=Xar=- said:
Oh, wait, there's a reason.-=Xar=- said:
I believe this notion comes from Piratecat: The question the DM is always answering is "What is the COOLEST thing that could happen right now?" And I believe it's a nugget of purest wisdom.
I submit that "The party gets slaughtered by a bunch of high-level NPCs," is not very high on the list of COOLEST things. Remember that it's NOT your job to pretend that the world is beyond your control and you have to passively submit to its logic. You define the logic of your campaign, and ANYTHING you say goes. So if the party gets out-gunned, it's because YOU made it happen.
Now you may decide "They didn't pay attention, they did something really stupid and they deserve to get their butts handed to them," and that's TOTALLY fine. But it was still your decision -- don't pretend (especially to yourself) that you didn't have options. DM = Person Who Makes Cool Things Happen. If you think a TPK is cool, go for it.
But if you don't, there's a literally INFINITE number of reasons why some arbitrary Group A wouldn't go after some other arbitrary Group B.
- Group A is beset by infighting and can't get organized.
- Group A's primary leadership is consumed with some other priority.
- Group B is secretly being protected by arbitrary Group C.
- Group B is on the verge of inadverdently accomplishing some task that Group A wants accomplished.
- Group A is paranoid and terrified of Group B, overestimating them mightily.
If you can't come up with any reasons, then start a thread on ENWorld and ask for suggestions.
Oh, wait. Right. Good job.
In addition to the "What's going on with the bad guys' organization?" question, there's "What allies and friends do the good guys have who would act to foil such a plan?"
Who else might be scrying on the enemy, and able to either warn the PC's or arrive in time to affect the outcome?
Scry / teleport in while party is asleep? Hmmm, clerics' god didn't want that to happen, and woke him/her 'just in time'.
Hire a few assasins? Does the party have any allied organizations which might have an informant in either the assasins' guild or the evil organization they've pissed off? Instant tip-off
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Another question is "Is revenge / annihlating the heroes 'in character'?" I can certainly imagine a BBEG who does not need to seek revenge against the PC's for offing some of his minions, but rather has the very Darwinian thought, "Ahh... some pruning of the weak." (Imagine the PC's surprise when they get a polite thank-you card...)
I can imagine a BBEG for whom self-preservation is paramount, whose reaction to that might be to set up a sort of dead-man's-switch: some destructive vengeance which will only be unleashed if he dies.
Lastly, scry | teleport myself seems a bit risky for the typical BBEG: but scry | teleport minions is in line, and you might be able to judge that encounter so that it really presses the party but doesn't TPK them - and certainly warns them that the next time might be worse.
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Echo that 'What's the COOLEST thing that could happen' line.
Who else might be scrying on the enemy, and able to either warn the PC's or arrive in time to affect the outcome?
Scry / teleport in while party is asleep? Hmmm, clerics' god didn't want that to happen, and woke him/her 'just in time'.
Hire a few assasins? Does the party have any allied organizations which might have an informant in either the assasins' guild or the evil organization they've pissed off? Instant tip-off
-------
Another question is "Is revenge / annihlating the heroes 'in character'?" I can certainly imagine a BBEG who does not need to seek revenge against the PC's for offing some of his minions, but rather has the very Darwinian thought, "Ahh... some pruning of the weak." (Imagine the PC's surprise when they get a polite thank-you card...)
I can imagine a BBEG for whom self-preservation is paramount, whose reaction to that might be to set up a sort of dead-man's-switch: some destructive vengeance which will only be unleashed if he dies.
Lastly, scry | teleport myself seems a bit risky for the typical BBEG: but scry | teleport minions is in line, and you might be able to judge that encounter so that it really presses the party but doesn't TPK them - and certainly warns them that the next time might be worse.
----
Echo that 'What's the COOLEST thing that could happen' line.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Use a smaller organization. BBEGs need not have whole armies at their backs.
National Acrobat
First Post
The Flip Side
I had this happen once as well, and I had the Flip Side of this situation occur, the DM's nightmare. I had a group that always planned things, was very cautious and used the best of their resources, and always made sure that they had the right spells prepared, equipment, that everyone was healed, if they needed to rest, etc. that they did it before they tackled anything major.
Then came the night. The one night that they decided to listen to the one unstable character in the group who was always advocating the 'seize the day' philosophy. I was running Against the Giants, the Liberation of Geoff, and they found the city run by the Fire Giants (I forget the name). Well they go in, discover the agents of the two covert groups that are in the town, they meet the priest of pelor who is pretending to not be a priest, and this is after several days travelling. The one character, a Barbarian, recommends attacking the Fire Giant fort. The spellcasters do not have battle spells ready. A few characters are low on hit points. This will be the culmination of about 9 months of real life game time, a major point in the campaign.
I figure they'll dismiss the barbarian, preferring to memorize the appropriate spells, heal up, recoinnoiter, etc. since the Fire Giant King and his elite guards are in the castle. Fully buffed and prepared, they could handle it. It might be tough, but they'll win.
Nope. They listen to the barbarian, blow the cover of the secret agents and charge the castle.
They got wiped out.
And blamed me, at least a couple of them did.
I tried to place subtle warnings, have the townspeople tell the horrors of the giant's behavior, the hidden agents explained the terrors of the occupation, etc.
They ignored it all anyway, for the only time this group has ever done something like that.
I had this happen once as well, and I had the Flip Side of this situation occur, the DM's nightmare. I had a group that always planned things, was very cautious and used the best of their resources, and always made sure that they had the right spells prepared, equipment, that everyone was healed, if they needed to rest, etc. that they did it before they tackled anything major.
Then came the night. The one night that they decided to listen to the one unstable character in the group who was always advocating the 'seize the day' philosophy. I was running Against the Giants, the Liberation of Geoff, and they found the city run by the Fire Giants (I forget the name). Well they go in, discover the agents of the two covert groups that are in the town, they meet the priest of pelor who is pretending to not be a priest, and this is after several days travelling. The one character, a Barbarian, recommends attacking the Fire Giant fort. The spellcasters do not have battle spells ready. A few characters are low on hit points. This will be the culmination of about 9 months of real life game time, a major point in the campaign.
I figure they'll dismiss the barbarian, preferring to memorize the appropriate spells, heal up, recoinnoiter, etc. since the Fire Giant King and his elite guards are in the castle. Fully buffed and prepared, they could handle it. It might be tough, but they'll win.
Nope. They listen to the barbarian, blow the cover of the secret agents and charge the castle.
They got wiped out.
And blamed me, at least a couple of them did.
I tried to place subtle warnings, have the townspeople tell the horrors of the giant's behavior, the hidden agents explained the terrors of the occupation, etc.
They ignored it all anyway, for the only time this group has ever done something like that.
Crothian
First Post
If the groups gets in over the head and deserves to be wiped out, do it...or at least come close. Leave them battered and bruised with nothing. All equipment stolen, spell books, holy symbols...everything. Killing the PCs all at the same time rarely teaches anything. So instead oa TPK, just really screw them over and make them pay for what they did for many sessions.
Hammerhead
Explorer
Isn't it the job of the characters to seriously piss off the evil organizations? I mean, the characters are supposed to the heroes and protagonists of their stories. I think a game where one DOESN'T seriously piss off the major bad guys would be a bad one. They're doing the right thing. As far as why the bad guys don't, well, the first reason I can come up with is that it would create a pretty bad game if you did.
Cheers!
Cheers!
Thx for all the input. Some of your advice can be helpfull to prolong the PC's lives for a bit longer. But I still do not see why the 'scry&fry' method wouldn't be the most optimal thing to do. Especially it's often used by the PC's to great effect. If I would be the leader of a powerfull organisation or party it would be on top of my list to consider, followed by an ambush by a buffed, powerful strike team. No character can survive an organised assault, especially when unprepared or split-up. Waiting too long only let's the PC's gain more power, so any later confrontation would be more dangerous.
Also I don't see the reason why such a powerfull, focused attack would seriously weaken the bad guys, they would mostly lose some spells which could be regained. Risk of losing their position in their own organisation? I can't imagine how an organisation could function if you can't leave them for themselves for a couple hours max.
Once the PC's get to be a real pain, I would find out their power level and strike with appropriate force. Not risking to lose underlings in meaningless skirmishes, but striking with maximum force if necesarry. No prisoners, no leaving the PC's behind in James Bond-style 'my-home-made-unescapable-atrocity-trap' which they can survive. Striking from the shadows, surgically removing the opposition, leaving only fear behind to any other challengers.
But that's just my style. I try to make the world feel as unforgiving and realistic as possible, but this makes adventuring particularly dangerous...
Also I don't see the reason why such a powerfull, focused attack would seriously weaken the bad guys, they would mostly lose some spells which could be regained. Risk of losing their position in their own organisation? I can't imagine how an organisation could function if you can't leave them for themselves for a couple hours max.
Once the PC's get to be a real pain, I would find out their power level and strike with appropriate force. Not risking to lose underlings in meaningless skirmishes, but striking with maximum force if necesarry. No prisoners, no leaving the PC's behind in James Bond-style 'my-home-made-unescapable-atrocity-trap' which they can survive. Striking from the shadows, surgically removing the opposition, leaving only fear behind to any other challengers.
But that's just my style. I try to make the world feel as unforgiving and realistic as possible, but this makes adventuring particularly dangerous...
