Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[KuKu]

Based on this list, here are the changes I would suggest to some of the Psionic powers to work at balancing the problems in which I see. Again, this is a suggested house rules and not official dogma.

(1) Energy powers get one type of energy at start. Knowledge skill of Arcana and Psionics required for gaining additional types. A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in each in the skill including all bonuses. Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken.

(2) Inertial armor would be changed to every 4 PP to augment every +1 AC.

(3) Force Screen would be changed to every 6 PP to augment every +1 AC.

(4) Energy adaptation specified, 2nd level, will only resist one type of energy for 10 points unless augmented. For 2 additional PP's at 9th level, 20 points can be resisted and 2 additional PP’s at 13th level to 30 points of resistance.

(5) Energy adaptation, 4th level, resists five types of energy for 10 points each. For an 2 additional PP's at 11th level, 20 points can be resisted and an 2 additional PP’s at 15th level to 30 points of resistance.

(6) I would change energy conversion to a 9th level power.

(7) Temporal Acceleration, I would change to a 9th level power. This power would give 2 extra rounds. The augmentation for 1 round per 4 additional PP’s still is used. IE 3 additional rounds at 21st level, 4 at 25th and so on. This is not as powerful as Time Stop but with the PP system can be done several times.

(8) Keep augments with regards to DC’s intact but does not change so that augmented of lower level powers is still subject to dispels and globes. Make a separate feat to raise the level of the power based on points spent.

(9) Change the 1st level bonus feat to choose either psicrystal affinity or imprint stone only.

(10) Change hidden manifestation to DC 20 plus the level of the power and a plus 4 more if in combat.

(11) Psychic Crush is basically a save or die power. Any power that puts down an enemy into negative HP will get that NPC killed at the PC’s convenience. This is a 5th level power.

(12) Again, just my suggestions or 2 cents. Also, don't underate the suboptimal builds!

Numbers added by me. (1) So without spending the skill points a psion who picked fire for energy ray cannot get any other energy types later on? Are you going to give them extra choices of energy types (force, alignment, acid, etc) in order to keep the other energy dealers from getting way ahead? (2) Do you disallow things like greater mage armor and other armor boosters from other sources as well? (3) The normal augment is already worthless, why this change? (4) and (5) and (6) these still seem very unecissary and illogical but if you are going to do them then perhaps some other benefit should ride along with it. After all, that is a huge amount of resources to pay, well above and beyond anyone else for the same benefit. (7) why not just get rid of temporal acceleration and time stop entirely? If not that why does temporal acceleration have to be worse than time stop in effectively every way? (8) Adding power points does not increase the level of the power so this does not seem to be a change other than having a feat which could raise the actual level of the power. (9) Why this change? This seems horrible. If you are going for more wizard like then give them both. Maybe you could change the wizard to have the same choice, a single choice feat or familar plus scribe scroll. (10) Perhaps ten plus power level plus half of power points spent to augment plus five times the number of displays that the psion wishes to hide? That starts it at a base of 16, which is doable a little over half of the time for a first level psion if he puts the skill points into it for a single hidden display while a ninth level power with two points of augmentation hiding three displays would take a check of thirty-five which is possible for a twentieth level psion to fail. (11) Psychic crush is already a fifth level power and a bad one at that with its massive bonus to the will save of the target plus all of its other issues. (12) suboptimal builds are suboptimal by definition, how can they not be treated as such? If you have one optimized build, one par build, and one suboptimal build then that is likely the order they will have in the group power wise as well unless the dm goes well out of his way to make it different.

 

[Bacris]

Negative Augments - check out Dimension Door, Psionic in Complete Psionic (not in the XPH or SRD) - it adds the ability spend fewer power points and manifest as a standard action instead of move action. The power level remains unchanged. Easy way to limit access to later levels.

And I agree, if Temp Acceleration is a problem, just eliminate it and time stop, problem solved.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Numbers added by me. (1) So without spending the skill points a psion who picked fire for energy ray cannot get any other energy types later on? Are you going to give them extra choices of energy types (force, alignment, acid, etc) in order to keep the other energy dealers from getting way ahead? (2) Do you disallow things like greater mage armor and other armor boosters from other sources as well? (3) The normal augment is already worthless, why this change? (4) and (5) and (6) these still seem very unecissary and illogical but if you are going to do them then perhaps some other benefit should ride along with it. After all, that is a huge amount of resources to pay, well above and beyond anyone else for the same benefit. (7) why not just get rid of temporal acceleration and time stop entirely? If not that why does temporal acceleration have to be worse than time stop in effectively every way? (8) Adding power points does not increase the level of the power so this does not seem to be a change other than having a feat which could raise the actual level of the power. (9) Why this change? This seems horrible. If you are going for more wizard like then give them both. Maybe you could change the wizard to have the same choice, a single choice feat or familar plus scribe scroll. (10) Perhaps ten plus power level plus half of power points spent to augment plus five times the number of displays that the psion wishes to hide? That starts it at a base of 16, which is doable a little over half of the time for a first level psion if he puts the skill points into it for a single hidden display while a ninth level power with two points of augmentation hiding three displays would take a check of thirty-five which is possible for a twentieth level psion to fail. (11) Psychic crush is already a fifth level power and a bad one at that with its massive bonus to the will save of the target plus all of its other issues. (12) suboptimal builds are suboptimal by definition, how can they not be treated as such? If you have one optimized build, one par build, and one suboptimal build then that is likely the order they will have in the group power wise as well unless the dm goes well out of his way to make it different.

1) No, they have other powers out of CP that include Positive, Force, Physical and so on so no additional energy types are needed.

2) So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional. At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.

3) You only get +4 deflection from which does not conflict and you can get +6 at 15th level. Add that to +7 at same level for inertial armor, say +5 for natural armor from oak body, this give him AC 28 as it is and on apar with the wizards buffs.

4) Free scaling isn't part of the way in which psionics are built and this brings them in line with the way that they are built.

5) In one manifestation you get the effect of 5 spells and that you shouldn't get free scaling as per #4. I think this is still well worth the power and will take it regardless of the character.

6) As 4 & 5, this power is well worth it at 9th level in that you can store damage of 4 types to deal again back at your enemies.

7) A wizard at 20th would have 3 spells and how many would take all three as Time Stop. A wizard would get 3.5 rounds every time with the same restrictions as Temporal Acceleration. A Psion with this power could easily use at least 2 to equal that a wizard would typically have which would be one spell or more.

8) This was meant to show an understanding and what could be done to fix other player complaints.

9) Because they shouldn't have the ability to choose whatever they want. This keeps them within the flavor of psionics. I'm not adverse to giving them both but my suggestion is to scale back to baseline and not keeping Psions above the baseline. XPH vs Core.

10) Yep, this should not be the end all and have no chance of failure but it could possibly be scaled back down to a DC 15 to start.

11) People have said that there was a lack of save or dies and I was pointing out one in which the Psion gets at a 5th level power and not 6th as most Wizard spells.

12) Okay.

 

[Tsuul]

2) So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional. At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.

So? Should a psion be <=wizard in all respects?

9) Because they shouldn't have the ability to choose whatever they want. This keeps them within the flavor of psionics.

Please read Bonus Feats under psionics. The flavor restriction is already in place. [edit: removed my spiteful comment.] Realy, should psions be <= wizards in all respects? Psions are not just flexible wizards. They are different.

Those are my two obvious remarks.

 

[Bacris]

It really does seem like you're more interested in making sure that psionics is less worthwhile than magic as opposed to "balancing it"

The many changes you want to make seem only intended to make the wizard better than the psion in all aspects. Why is it so wrong that the psion be better than the wizard at parts of the game, while the wizard is better at others?

 

[wildstarsreach]

So? Should a psion be <=wizard in all respects?

Should they be greater than the Wizard? I think not. They should be equitable, not superior.

Please read Bonus Feats under psionics. The flavor restriction is already in place. Ar you just being spiteful at this point? Realy, should psions be <= wizards in all respects? Psions are not just flexible wizards. They are different.

Those are my two obvious remarks.

Missed that one. Okay, I take it back.

 

[wildstarsreach]

It really does seem like you're more interested in making sure that psionics is less worthwhile than magic as opposed to "balancing it"

The many changes you want to make seem only intended to make the wizard better than the psion in all aspects. Why is it so wrong that the psion be better than the wizard at parts of the game, while the wizard is better at others?

I'll still play the Psion with the limits I've suggested. I want them to be on par with the Core only wizard. Not a head and shoulders above. My suggestions don't take them below a wizard, they just level the playing field.

 

[Bacris]

But he's not on par...

The Wizard has far superior higher level spells and the ability to learn as many spells as he can pay for or find and keep spell slots open to choose later in the day. The save or dies you discuss that the psion has are drastically inferior to the higher level wizard spells.

Are you going to take this into account, as well? You're taking some of the psion's flexibility away, which is its greatest strength, and leaving one of the wizard's greatest strengths in place (save or dies).

Comparitively, your psion is not on par with the wizard, he is quickly becoming an inferior.

 

[wildstarsreach]

But he's not on par...

The Wizard has far superior higher level spells and the ability to learn as many spells as he can pay for or find and keep spell slots open to choose later in the day. The save or dies you discuss that the psion has are drastically inferior to the higher level wizard spells.

Are you going to take this into account, as well? You're taking some of the psion's flexibility away, which is its greatest strength, and leaving one of the wizard's greatest strengths in place (save or dies).

Comparitively, your psion is not on par with the wizard, he is quickly becoming an inferior.

Prove me wrong by playing it. I am willing to play with the restrictions because one, I like the flavor and two are still more than playable to still be a powerhouse. Again, these are house rules and not doctrine.

Yes, the wizard has much more save or dies. 1/6 get crystalize which is essentially a flesh to stone at 6th level of power. There are some but not a lot.

With complete psionic, positive and negative damage has been added to the Psions potential repertoire. They had Force potential and now these kinds. The Psion is getting everything that detractors had said they were missing. Now it is time to scale back. I'm sure that future supplements will give them that.

They still have flexability, just not all at once. They have to grow into it instead of having it handed to them all at 1st level.

 

[KuKu]

1) No, they have other powers out of CP that include Positive, Force, Physical and so on so no additional energy types are needed.

2) So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional. At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.

3) You only get +4 deflection from which does not conflict and you can get +6 at 15th level. Add that to +7 at same level for inertial armor, say +5 for natural armor from oak body, this give him AC 28 as it is and on apar with the wizards buffs.

4) Free scaling isn't part of the way in which psionics are built and this brings them in line with the way that they are built.

5) In one manifestation you get the effect of 5 spells and that you shouldn't get free scaling as per #4. I think this is still well worth the power and will take it regardless of the character.

6) As 4 & 5, this power is well worth it at 9th level in that you can store damage of 4 types to deal again back at your enemies.

7) A wizard at 20th would have 3 spells and how many would take all three as Time Stop. A wizard would get 3.5 rounds every time with the same restrictions as Temporal Acceleration. A Psion with this power could easily use at least 2 to equal that a wizard would typically have which would be one spell or more.

8) This was meant to show an understanding and what could be done to fix other player complaints.

9) Because they shouldn't have the ability to choose whatever they want. This keeps them within the flavor of psionics. I'm not adverse to giving them both but my suggestion is to scale back to baseline and not keeping Psions above the baseline. XPH vs Core.

10) Yep, this should not be the end all and have no chance of failure but it could possibly be scaled back down to a DC 15 to start.

11) People have said that there was a lack of save or dies and I was pointing out one in which the Psion gets at a 5th level power and not 6th as most Wizard spells.

12) Okay.

(1) There are few powers which are worthwhile which are outside of those elemental powers. Concussion blast is a waste of space and as you are using complete psionics then damage reduction effects the physical powers which really cuts into their effectiveness. You are imposing a fairly large extra limit on the energy powers without giving anything back at all. A fire psion is stuck being a fire psion without expending even more resources beyond what it takes to keep up with damage from a wizard. Yuck. If the number of ranks was lower and they could choose between a greater selection then I might be able to get behind what you are saying, but as is? (2) Even if this is true, which is a big if, I still do not see the reason for the change. A wizard could research a better spell for a higher slot and put it into his pool of nearly limitless choices. But your change does not follow the progression outlined by spells already available to the wizard so you are just making the psion worse. It is ok for one to be better at something than the other however. (3) It is a shield bonus and it is basically the same as the shield spell except that instead of blocking magic missile it has a horribly expensive augment. (4) Free scaling of damage dice is not a psionic thing generally, scaling of other effects is hit or miss. Even for damage there are other tradeoffs however. Instead of free scaling psions get choice and dc increase for the extra cost, tradeoffs. With your change there is no tradeoff, it is simply worse. If you are going to charge more then there should be something to show for it. Otherwise it is simply a nerf and a poor one in this case. (5) I believe that this was already debunked very well earlier in the thread. (7) And the specialist wizard has many more total equivalent slots for the day along with potentiallly orders of magnitude more choices for what to place into those slots. You would simply be better off removing all of them entirely as they could still cause problems, people complain about time stops problems quite often and your changes will only make the psionic a poor cousin yet again in the comparison. (8) Which complaint? (9) Others have covered this, it seems that you were unaware of the choices for the feat in question. Does that knowledge adjust how you would do this rule? (11) So you pick one that is mostly a waste of space? Wizards have baleful polymorph and phantasmal killer while psions have psychic crush. Psychic crush has the same dc as a first level spell or power plus is mind-affecting plus any healing spell will put them back into the fight.