Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[KuKu]

That's a fairly pointless comparison, though.

But the order of things, nonetheless is very easy:

1) Psion
2) Warmage
3) Sorcerer
4) Wizard

Leaving the Cleric and Druid out there, since while they have some decent damage dealing spells, they are clearly no match for the others in that regard.

Now you want to know why the Psion is 1st, right?

That's because you asked for "the most damaging spells/powers" up there. And the Psion will be able to manifest much more of those 5th-level powers as compared to the 5th-level spells, the others have (they cannot cast their most damaging spells with lower level slots).

Now if you want to know how many damage dice in total each class can shell out in a day, the Psion will clearly be on the last spot, of course. That lies in the nature of the power point and augmentation system, and as I said already, it's pointless to compare things this way. A comparison between the two system must be much more complex and must take multiple factors into consideration.

How about we compare the number of +10 dispels everyone can do in one day? That's equally silly, but nonetheless quite interesting to look up.

Bye
Thanee

+10 dispels? Sorcerers start off with six third level spells, five fourth level spells, and three fifth level spells. This means he has fourteen +10 dispels per day before charisma is taken into account. The psion has eighty eight power points so he has seventeen +10 dispels. The sorcer is behind by three dispels but still has all of his zeroth, first, and second level slots remaining. If the first and second level slots were used for magic missile and scorching ray respectively then he would have seventy eight dice of damage, which is about the same amount of dice that the psion has for the day before he did anything else at all. Although after all of those dispels the psion only had three power points left. I would like to see this damage comparison though, can anyone make a good representation of that?

 

[Valor]

Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks.

Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.

I have a questions for you Wildstarsearch. How, if at all, do you make the distinction between your Arcane or Psion powers when you are choosing them? By this I mean do you use your Arcane ones for buff spells and your Psions ones for damage dealing or visa versa? Also how do you find playing a cerebramancer? I don’t mean how is the class but do you find it well balanced and not a broken Prestige Class? It has been hotly debated why with so many if not nearly all the Psionic prestige classes lacking full manifester level progression why they would bother to include one with both arcane and Psionic full caster/manifester levels. Personally I always found it to be a one of the few areas where Psionics in my mind is unbalanced. I actually prefer that prestige classes to not have full manifester progression; it makes the base classes more worthwhile. What do you think?

Valor


To Home and Victory

 

[Thanee]

The psion has eighty eight power points ...

...with an ability score of 10, yeah.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

I don't think the problem is with Psionics, more than it is with the character build. Any class/race/combo can appear "broken" depending on how you build it. Either (a) you built a very good character, better than your fellow PCs or (b) they built their characters poorly, at least not as good as your character. I think that is where the problem lies.

 

[Valor]

Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.

Valor

To Home and Victory

 

[Thanee]

I don't think the problem is with Psionics, more than it is with the character build. Any class/race/combo can appear "broken" depending on how you build it. Either (a) you built a very good character, better than your fellow PCs or (b) they built their characters poorly, at least not as good as your character. I think that is where the problem lies.

This is a good point. I think you are wrong on your assessment, though.

While with most classes you actively need to pursuit a certain path to brokenness while building up the character (and surely most classes can end up there in some fashion), you can pick pretty much any Psion in existance and will end up with the problems that have been outlined several times by now on various occasions.

That's a pretty telling difference, IMHO.

The difference here is, that with most classes, there are some specific options or combinations of options, which are broken, while with psionics, it lies in the system.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.

Effect.

Comparing specific spells/powers doesn't say much, unless you do the comparison for all spells/powers in existance.

I prefer to compare something like spell level times (capped) caster level vs power level times manifester level. That's a pretty generic value, which gives a good estimate of the effect of one spell casting or power manifesting.

Of course, then you still need to take other factors into consideration, i.e. the lack of verbal, somatic and material components Psions enjoy, or the better choice the spellcasters have for their chosen spells.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Valor]

I wish some one would explain to me in what ways the Psionics system is broken or at the very least show me where it has already been discused. People just seem to state it as an unquestionable truth with out justification.

Valor

 

[RigaMortus2]

This is a good point. I think you are wrong on your assessment, though.

While with most classes you actively need to pursuit a certain path to brokenness while building up the character (and surely most classes can end up there in some fashion), you can pick pretty much any Psion in existance and will end up with the problems that have been outlined several times by now on various occasions.

That's a pretty telling difference, IMHO.

The difference here is, that with most classes, there are some specific options or combinations of options, which are broken, while with psionics, it lies in the system.

Bye
Thanee

I don't know, I've had no unbalancing problems with any of the Psions I have played. Sure, he's been in the spotlight in more than one occassion, but so has the other PCs. And while you can "cast" more higher level powers than a Wizard or Sorc, you also burn through your power point reserve a lot quicker. I have more of an "issue" with classes that don't have some sort of resource expenditure, such as the Warlock, Incarnate and Totemist. (Well, not really an issue, since I am the one that PLAYS those classes

 

[Valor]

Well I think that comparing all power and all spells well while it sounds like a possible way of doing it. Have you even considered the sheer size of the choice arcane and divine have over Psionics? If that were to be the module for comparison I think you would find Psionics just swamped by the sheer volume of Arcane/Divine spells.

Valor