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Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it
- Thread starter wildstarsreach
- Start date
Marcus Smythe
First Post
Nail said:
It tells us Psionics is different in how it is percieved than other forms of 'Magicy Stuff'
Why is this?
1.) It may be strictly better to be a Psion 20 than any of the extant pure caster classes (I suggest this is unlikely)
2.) It may be more different, dynamically, than most new flavours of "Magicy Stuff" (I suggest this is likely, compared to some of the new flavours.)
3.) It may be better than the most/all new flavours of Magicy Stuff (I suggest this is a given.. most 'new' classes and types of magic have proven very very very weak compared to the old core)
4.) It may have a long history of poorly balanced (both up and down) applications in game, that lead to a more intense scrutiny. (Given)
5.) It may require different GM choices to keep from overshadowing non-casters than does Arcane and Divine Magic, leading to those choices being less frequently made, and so the class appears stronger. (Uncertain)
6.) Players and GMs may percieve the ability to deal massive Direct Damage (something some classes actually do better than the Psion.. I suggest a Blastificer, or an Energy-Sub Metamagic-Specced variant Sorc) as superior to the ability to force a save-or-die, or a no-save-just-die. (Uncertain, depends on player/GM perception)
The fact that many GMs are apparently uncomfortable with psionics in their game certainly suggests that there are opportunities for education and discussion. It does not necessarily mandate that psionics is unbalancing.
*Caveat: I will admit that there are psionic powers that really need to go. I will also admit that there are magic spells that really need to go. I think once we get rid of both, most of our concerns will be found to have gone with them.
The present Wiz could do this 11 times/day, with 7 of them heigtened and/or otherwise metamagiced. Is that "goofy"?takasi said:
We had lots of problems with Time Stop in 3.0; we eventually banned it. I'd tend to ban 1-2 of the most problemic powers, and see if that helps resolve the issues.takasi said:
There are also numerous cases where there are powers worse than the "equivalent" spell. As an example from your above list, when I played a Sorcerer, the primary reason for casting Shield was to grant my PC Magic Missile immunity; the AC change was largely irrelavant 90%+ of the time. I wouldn't have bothered with Shield as a selection were it not for that feature (which is absent from Force Screen).takasi said:
Also note that the "better" versions of a number of these powers have the cost of a much higher-level power.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Thanee said:
At level 20, a Sorcerer has 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3. No spells are prohibited.
At level 20, a Psion has 0/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6 by my count, assuming he always takes powers from the top level available. Many key spells (fly, teleportation, astral construct, charm, animal affinity, schism, fission) are limited to a single Discipline, so unless you burn a LOT of Feats, you'll have far less to choose from, and you can't even use items that cast those powers. (A Sorcerer who skips fireball can use a wand or scroll for it just fine...) This REALLY hurts in the mid-levels; I had a hard time finding enough I actually wanted at some levels (especially 6th and 7th).
Picking from the top psion level at all times really isn't a good idea; when my Psion was around level 10ish, his power point pool was just too small to make lots of 4th and 5th-level spells a good idea, but there were plenty of good 1st-level spells available, many of which would be augmentable for down the road (when I'd have enough power points to do so). By 20, I think I had eight or nine first-level spells, most of which were augmentable. So the effect, in the end, is the same as with the Sorcerer; you'll still be choosing lower-level powers when you could be taking higher-level ones, simply because they're the best choice for you.
So, the difference? The Sorcerer gets 9 cantrips (Psion gets none), one extra 2nd-level spell, but loses 3 spells of 9th level (really, this means "any level" since there are only 7 9th-level powers, plus 1-2 per discipline, and most of them aren't that great). Now, you can scoff at cantrips all you want, but have you ever tried to play a Sorcerer or Wizard who couldn't use read magic or detect magic? Like it or not, these things are useful, and to get the equivalent, a Psion has to take them as 1st-level powers... which means if he doesn't want to dump some other critical 1st-level power, he's going to have to use a later slot (like those extra 9th-level ones). This really adds up.
To me, this is a wash; the Psion gets an edge because of the flexibility of the powers involved, but I'd still put it close enough to not be a huge discrepancy, but the Sorcerer can pick from a much wider range of spells thanks to the Discipline limit.
Anyway, I and my group are happy with Psionics, to the point where we've basically merged the Wizard into the Cleric class to make room for the Psion. It's very flexible, but the Focus thing limits metapsionics, and the Sorcerer still beats it in sustainable firepower by a large margin, while the divine casters beat it in spell selection easily. The ONLY major complaint I've seen is that the Schism/Fission-style powers are just too good; in 3.5E haste was changed so that casters couldn't double-cast as easily, and yet Psions can still do similar things. Fortunately, none of the Psions I've grouped with ever chose a Telepath, so schism just isn't an issue for us.
And as a Shaper who specialized in Astral Constructs, I can say: I love the things, but there's REALLY a big appeal to being able to summon something with spell-like abilities, or good all-around resistances, or that can drain some stat, or that have Scent, etc. ACs become a bit too one-dimensional.
takasi
First Post
Zimbel16 said:
I mispoke. At 17th lvl he can do it 25 times with psionics. He can also augment it, essentially giving him metamagic without taking any feats.
He's also a cerebremancer with practised spellcaster and manifester. He could actually disintegrate almost 40 times per day, if he decided to do use his wizard spells and the heighten feat.
Thanee
First Post
Spatzimaus said:
Why not look at a few more levels, like...
1st Sorcerer 4/2 - Psion 0/3 (small advantage Sorcerer)
2nd Sorcerer 5/2 - Psion 0/5 (small advantage Psion)
3rd Sorcerer 5/3 - Psion 0/5/2 (great advantage Psion)
4th Sorcerer 6/3/1 - Psion 0/5/4 (great advantage Psion)
5th Sorcerer 6/4/2 - Psion 0/5/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
6th Sorcerer 7/4/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
7th Sorcerer 7/5/3/2 - Psion 0/5/4/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
8th Sorcerer 8/5/3/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
9th Sorcerer 8/5/4/3/2 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
10th Sorcerer 9/5/4/3/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
... and so on.
(And this is not counting the 'multi' powers, which effectively become additional higher level powers with augmentation; every Psion will have a few of those.)
Please don't tell me that a Sorcerer has better (or even remotely equal) spells known than a Psion has powers known. They are worse by several degrees at almost every level.
Yes, I always said, that Detect Magic is very useful and I would waste no second to count it as another 1st-level spell known in such a comparison. The other 0-level spells are neglectible, though.
Bye
Thanee
Hello Takasi welcome to the convo. After looking over your group you presented I got to say. HOLY HANNA. I mean I have never heard of a group with that many caster classes at such high levels. Compared to these characters I can really understand how Wildstarsearch is being showed up in sheer power.
As far as complaints go. The lack of components as I have said before in previous posts is a basic staple of Psionic powers. They have Displays instead (which can be hidden if need be). I don’t really see where this is that big of a deal. How often does using components come up for Wizards? Ok if they are pinned or otherwise bound or in major hindrance then yes components can become a hassle. Or is it that no Psionic powers have GP cost attached. I would like to point out that Powers that would normally have GP costs have XP cost. And as we all know XP is infinitely more valuable then GP. Grappling still works wonders for taking down Psions. Its just a big distraction to manifest power as it is to cast spells. So I don’t see how that is a problem, maybe just lack of information. While silence wont stop a Psion, blindness will, or lack of a line of sight. While this can be gotten around by some powers, most Psions won’t have taken the time to have learned these powers since they are not that useful Also Dispel works wonders for putting a Psion in his place.
While yes it is possible that a Psion would use up all his power points on high level powers. This is much more problematic then most realize. While sure he can sling around Psionic Disintegrate a lot (Which is numerically almost having half of what the Arcane version is). So while it is more high level spells in this case it is actually like casting half of one of the Arcane versions of the spell. That Psion is pretty much screwed for the rest of the day not to mention the rest of the fight. While a Wizard can throw around not nearly as many of these powers, when they have exhausted their supply of high level spells they still have all their OTHER spells to use. This is the trade off While this sounds more like a jealously issue on the part of the spell casters maybe they should be reminded that at this time they are still very much active and kicking ass while the Psion is running home to mommy for being so foolish.
Wonky abilities. Well ok you got me there that term can apply to more then a few powers(ditto for spells and more so because there are many more spells out there). Powers like Schism and Temporal Acceleration have been banned in my campaign for the simple reason that other then quicken spells/powers I don’t like the idea of giving out more rounds. From what I understand this is the approach most DM take when faced with these kind of wonky abilities.
As for powers that are just like spells, only better. Ok your right there are some. But the same can be said in reverse there are powers just like spells only worse. In some case basic spells that do not even have power counterparts. And even as far as power/spell power well after looking at The spell/power lists of your players. If you take out the two mentioned powers from before then the Psions powers compared to the rest of the group is well average if not mediocre.
Takasi I don’t think anyone would say this is your fault…in fact isn’t that the biggest rule 0 there is? It’s never the DM’s fault.
I highly recommend those links I put up a few posts ago. For anyone looking for most answered when it comes to things they question about Psionics THAT is the place to go.
Valor
As far as complaints go. The lack of components as I have said before in previous posts is a basic staple of Psionic powers. They have Displays instead (which can be hidden if need be). I don’t really see where this is that big of a deal. How often does using components come up for Wizards? Ok if they are pinned or otherwise bound or in major hindrance then yes components can become a hassle. Or is it that no Psionic powers have GP cost attached. I would like to point out that Powers that would normally have GP costs have XP cost. And as we all know XP is infinitely more valuable then GP. Grappling still works wonders for taking down Psions. Its just a big distraction to manifest power as it is to cast spells. So I don’t see how that is a problem, maybe just lack of information. While silence wont stop a Psion, blindness will, or lack of a line of sight. While this can be gotten around by some powers, most Psions won’t have taken the time to have learned these powers since they are not that useful Also Dispel works wonders for putting a Psion in his place.
While yes it is possible that a Psion would use up all his power points on high level powers. This is much more problematic then most realize. While sure he can sling around Psionic Disintegrate a lot (Which is numerically almost having half of what the Arcane version is). So while it is more high level spells in this case it is actually like casting half of one of the Arcane versions of the spell. That Psion is pretty much screwed for the rest of the day not to mention the rest of the fight. While a Wizard can throw around not nearly as many of these powers, when they have exhausted their supply of high level spells they still have all their OTHER spells to use. This is the trade off While this sounds more like a jealously issue on the part of the spell casters maybe they should be reminded that at this time they are still very much active and kicking ass while the Psion is running home to mommy for being so foolish.
Wonky abilities. Well ok you got me there that term can apply to more then a few powers(ditto for spells and more so because there are many more spells out there). Powers like Schism and Temporal Acceleration have been banned in my campaign for the simple reason that other then quicken spells/powers I don’t like the idea of giving out more rounds. From what I understand this is the approach most DM take when faced with these kind of wonky abilities.
As for powers that are just like spells, only better. Ok your right there are some. But the same can be said in reverse there are powers just like spells only worse. In some case basic spells that do not even have power counterparts. And even as far as power/spell power well after looking at The spell/power lists of your players. If you take out the two mentioned powers from before then the Psions powers compared to the rest of the group is well average if not mediocre.
Takasi I don’t think anyone would say this is your fault…in fact isn’t that the biggest rule 0 there is? It’s never the DM’s fault.
I highly recommend those links I put up a few posts ago. For anyone looking for most answered when it comes to things they question about Psionics THAT is the place to go.
Valor
Thanee
First Post
Valor said:
It's not. This is completely wrong. It's almost no distraction, having to make a mediocre Concentration check is no deal (for neither of them). Being *completely unable* to cast 95% of the existing spells is a rather big 'distraction'.
LOL
Sorry, but the guy (well both of them) who posted those threads over at WotC so has (have) no clue (judging from what they write there), it's really good for a laugh, but that's all there is to it. There are so many errors in these posts, that this alone completely invalidates the points that are tried to be made there. The only stuff they got right are the really obvious ones. Then there are some real gems, like the explanation why Energy Missile is not broken.
Granted, there might be some decent posts hidden somewhere inside those monster threads, but I already asked someone once who claimed there were any to show them, and he was unable to do so, so I assume they are all just as questionable and ridiculous as the opening post is. I will gladly revert my opinion on them, though, if someone is able to point out some actually decent posts in there.
Bye
Thanee
Spatzimaus
First Post
Thanee said:
There are two separate issues here:
1> The Sorcerer's 1-level lag isn't exactly a new issue. The justification I've always seen for it when compared to a Wizard was that Sorcerers sacrifice that and spells known in exchange for their MASSIVE firepower, and the exact same situation comes up in regards to Psions. Why? Because while Psions can front-load their spells better than Wizards can, the total number of spell levels per day they can cast is far closer to the Wizard end than the Sorcerer one. My old 3E Sorcerer NEVER ran out of spells, even considering the fact that he used a lot of low-level ones (invisibility, haste, fly); my 3.5E Psion runs out often.
So, if you accept that the 1-level lag is balanced vs. Wizards, then by the same logic it must be balanced vs. Psions... which means you should be comparing a Sor 10 (9/5/4/3/2/1) to a Psi 9 (0/5/4/4/4/2), which is a bit closer. If you don't compare it this way, you're claiming that Sorcerers are far weaker than Wizards, because they're being penalized for nothing.
2> Again, this assumes the Psion ALWAYS picks spells of the highest possible level. Which, as I've mentioned, isn't always true.
Take that 10th level you mention; for my Shaper, what four 5th-level powers would he want at that point? Okay, plane shift is nice, and true seeing has its uses (except note that the psionic version is self-only, while the arcane/divine are Touch range; of course, there's no 250gp component involved either). But what else did I have to look from? power resistance's usefulness depends on whether you play with complete magic/psionic transparency; hail of crystals just doesn't seem that attractive when compared to the other damage powers; what's left, adapt body and major creation?
Plus, as I pointed out, the PP shortage really hurts too much to always take the biggest powers. A level 10 Psion with an 18 INT has 108 power points, and those 5th-level powers cost 9 apiece. Once you include all the lower-level powers (especially the augmentable ones) you'll be using, there just isn't any point to having 4 5th-level powers at that level.
So really, what I ended up doing at level 10 was picking two lower-level powers (I forget which.) The same pattern happened all the way up; I only took the newest and biggest power maybe half the time, which really ends up just mimicking the Sorcerer progression (where you get your four known spells at N, N+2, N+4, and N+6).
For the Energy attack powers, sure, they're more flexible than anything an arcane type gets. Of course, to get them to do the damage of their arcane equivalents, you need to pump extra power points into them, and this adds up fast. But okay, overall they're stronger.
The level 1 augmentable stuff is nice, but most of the time the augmentation is just marginally increasing its effectiveness at a steep cost. (The Shield equivalent that's 1pp for the first 4 AC but +4pp for each one after that?) There are a few exceptions, of course; I like the ones that let you spend 6pp to quicken, because at high level the time becomes the limiting factor.
And there are powers like animal affinity that can be used to mimic multiple arcane spells... but the power is self-only, to balance. (And is limited to a single discipline, of course)
But many of the other Psion powers are LESS functional than their arcane equivalents. Several simply become self-only (tongues, true seeing) with no gain in flexibility, some have drastically increased casting times (identify goes from 1 hour to 1 day), some have drastically decreased durations (moment of prescience drops from 1 hour/level down to 1 ROUND per level), some drop minor functions (force screen doesn't stop magic missile)... this really starts to add up after a while.
And, as I mentioned before, the difference in spell selection is HUGE. Psions can't fly, charm, fireball, scry, Summon, or buff a stat at the same time, because each of these is in a different Discipline; barring spending an entire Feat just to get a single power, you're out of luck. So while the Psion might be able to effectively spoof more powers by using some multi-use powers, he can't cover nearly as large of a range of abilities. My Sorcerer, on the other hand, could do all six of these.
I can say from experience, my Sorcerer never felt stifled by the known-spell limit, but my Psion does.
I'd put read magic and mage hand into that group, too. So that means the Sorcerer gains the equivalent of three additional known 1st-level spells, not counting what he could learn with the remaining cantrips (like message, light, prestidigitation, etc.) But even if you only like detect magic and cast it the 6 times per day, that's still effectively a half-dozen extra power points the Psion would be expected to burn, and an extra known power he'd be expected to take in lieu of something stronger.
Deekin
Adventurer
I just have to throw 2 cents in about psions and grappling
Grappling or Pinned
To manifest a power while grappling or pinned, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the power you’re manifesting) or lose the power.
Retrieve a Spell Component
You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check
Another problem you seem to have is free scaling vs Augmentantion . WHat if when the Sorc used a 3rd level slot to cast fireball, he only got 5d6 damage and to do more damage, he would have to use a higher level slot, but could use two slots of a lower level instead to cast a higher level spell?
Psionics metamagic feats are cheaper becouse of the point cap. A psion can never spend more points than his level, and metamagic counts toward that cap. A wizard does not have that cap. A 10th level wizard can cast an empowered fireball for 15d6 damage using up a fifth level slot. A 10th level Kineticist can toss a 10d6 energy ball or a 12d6 empowered energy ball. The advantage is that the psion save DC will be 2-3 higher, and they can chose an energy type on the fly.
Grappling or Pinned
To manifest a power while grappling or pinned, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the power you’re manifesting) or lose the power.
Retrieve a Spell Component
You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check
Another problem you seem to have is free scaling vs Augmentantion . WHat if when the Sorc used a 3rd level slot to cast fireball, he only got 5d6 damage and to do more damage, he would have to use a higher level slot, but could use two slots of a lower level instead to cast a higher level spell?
Psionics metamagic feats are cheaper becouse of the point cap. A psion can never spend more points than his level, and metamagic counts toward that cap. A wizard does not have that cap. A 10th level wizard can cast an empowered fireball for 15d6 damage using up a fifth level slot. A 10th level Kineticist can toss a 10d6 energy ball or a 12d6 empowered energy ball. The advantage is that the psion save DC will be 2-3 higher, and they can chose an energy type on the fly.
