Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Marcus Smythe]

Not having played the PsyWar, Wilder, Lurk, Divine Mind, Ardent or Mindblade, I don't have any real experience with them but from my estimation they are not imbalanced like the Psion or possibly the Erudite.

The other classes have much less PP or powers. The Erudite get upto 51 powers and Psion 36 powers. Granted that 11 of the powers require access that the Erudite doesn't have to powers restricted to other classes.

I guess that I'm not going to convince people that there are inherent problems with this class. I love the class but see that there are problems. I give up commenting. thanks for all of your opinions.

I hate to see the OP retire from the thread... I'm willing to be convinced. I also love the class. Im just not seeing anything that seems to me out of whack, given the other costs involved for the psion. (As I love to say... Teleport, Fireball, Polymorph. Pick one. Use a feat for the each of the other two...)

 

[IcyCool]

The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class.

Wow, I have had the exact opposite experience with this. I had a party (all 14th level) consisting of a Drow Warlock 14 (bought off her level adjustment), a gray elf Wizard/Geometer/Celestial Mystic, a human Wizard/Druid/Arcane Heirophant (using Precocious Apprentice to qualify), a Dwarven Paladin, a Warforged Fighter/Juggernaught, a human Bard/Rogue/Druid/Folchian Lyricist/Sublime Chord (with the Words of Creation feat), and a Human Wilder 14.

The Wilder was by far the powerhouse of that group. In an encounter that wound up just being the Celestial Mystic and the Wilder against an old red dragon (CR 20) and two of his mortal lackeys (simple, human fighter 6s), the wilder killed the dragon by herself in three rounds.

Edit - I would like to add that I'm a fan of the Psychic Warrior, and find the Soulknife interesting.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

I'm trying to imagine a CR20 Red Dragon not simply eating (claw-claw-bite-improved grab-breath weapon) a Lvl 14 Wilder.

That must have been SOME cunning plan the party had...

 

[IcyCool]

I'm trying to imagine a CR20 Red Dragon not simply eating (claw-claw-bite-improved grab-breath weapon) a Lvl 14 Wilder.

That must have been SOME cunning plan the party had...

Well, when your wilder has Schism, Time Hop, Temporal Acceleration, and the silly power from Races of Destiny (? The one that lets you take your action as if you had readied it, so you can act at pretty much any single point in the initiative count), it was less cunning and more "I spend power points and make it die while making the initiative system into my prison buddy". On the bright side, it was the first time since the Wilder had joined the group that she was close to running out of power points. Normally, I'd only run her down to about 1/3 her total on a good day.

 

[Thanee]

In this discussion I see constant references to the psion, largely in part due to the framing of the issue by the OP, but it does leave me to wonder somewhat whether folks feel that "psionics is broken" as well for the psychic warrior and the wilder. Not to derail this thread, but I am curious.

Not as much as the psion for sure. There are issues with those classes, the psychic warrior is strong but except for a few very specific things, I consider them fine. Wilders have this pretty broken ability to manifest powers of a *power level* way beyond what they should be able to do. It has downsides (and pretty hefty ones) as well, but that can easily go out of bounds. Psions can do that, too, to some degree with overchanneling, but not as easily.

This is also, why I think Practiced Manifester was a *really* bad idea. It's easily twice or three times as powerful as Practiced Spellcaster, because augmentation allows you to improve the effect of a power in a way, that both manifester level and more importantly power level increase.

And yes, I'm well aware, that the actual power level does not change... it's the effective power level I'm speaking about.

But, to get back to your question, my main gripe is with the psion class specifically, because it is simply way too good (it's also way more powerful than the wilder). Somehow in the design process they must have forgotten, that the psion can spontaneously manifest...

Wilders are definitely a very powerful class as well, but they also have downsides, which psions do not have (apart from the overall psionics downsides, of course, like the much fewer powers (compared to spells) that exist overall, or PrC choices).

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrostedMini1337]

If you can have a wilder live to level 14 you deserve a good character. Scraping around low levels with 1-3 powers know is awful .

 

[Thanee]

Now you prove to me why I'm wrong.

I havn't asked and offered to do so, unlike someone else here.

Based on Everything. The whole picture. Come on, it's a simple question. Why are sorcerers powerful?

I already did that, actually (within reasonable limits, of course).

I have no link unfortunately, but maybe you can dig it up somehow.

(...since people have given a hell of a lot more *evidence* for the power balance of the Psion...)

Like what?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

So, a mathmatical analysis of all potential power/feat/class/PRC combinations, in all circumstances, in all game styles, evaluated for impact per day, impact per round, surviviablity, flexibility, mobility, utility, synergy with other party members, buffing, debuffing, crowd control...

You said that. I just said, that the whole picture should be represented.

You are also the one who both offered evidence and says that evidence has to be mathematically perfect. So, really, that's your problem, not mine.

Would you like a side of fries with that, too?

No, thanks.

In case I am unclear.. people throw around 'more powerful' in a fashion that enables nothing more than further debate, talking past one another, changing the balance target, etc. I am proposing that we attempt to move this to the next level, and apply something vaguely resembling rigor to the process.

Done that already a long time ago.

Unfortunately, I have no link, and I don't really want to write it up again.

If your not interested in that, let me return the conversation to its more basic level.

"Psionics is too powerful, because of power XYZ, and anecdote PDQ"
"No, Arcane Magic is too powerful, because of spell ABC and anecdote DMZ"
"Is not"
"Is too"
"Not"
"Too"
"Not"
"Too"

While not enlightening, it is entertaining, and has the added benefit of never being able to be proven wrong.

Yep, many (most actually) people base their subjective opinions on singular experiences. I don't.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Well, when your wilder has Schism, Time Hop, Temporal Acceleration, and the silly power from Races of Destiny (? The one that lets you take your action as if you had readied it, so you can act at pretty much any single point in the initiative count), it was less cunning and more "I spend power points and make it die while making the initiative system into my prison buddy". On the bright side, it was the first time since the Wilder had joined the group that she was close to running out of power points. Normally, I'd only run her down to about 1/3 her total on a good day.

Oh. "She went Nova". Check. Usually a very bad call, but when 2xCR13 characters run into a CR20 encounter, you dont have much choice...

Im seeing 4 of 7 powers built out for nova-ing... except Im not sure what role Time Hop played (getting her friends safely in the future and out of the way?), one of which cost a feat... what was the kill card, if I may ask?

Thanee: You refuse to prove the inverse of my arguement, you refuse to define what is desired save by gross generalities. I was attempting to get to some sort of resolution with you, but you appear to be too firmly convinced to even risk your assumptions to any sort of test. I dont see us coming to an understanding, or even grounds for further discussion.

 

[Thanee]

You refuse to prove the inverse of my arguement, ...

That's right. I also don't see why I should do so? I wasn't the one who offered evidence in the first place.

BTW, what argument? I must have missed that, sorry. (Post #?)

...you refuse to define what is desired save by gross generalities.

Yeah, I'm not doing that work for you either (and I'm not entirely sure what kind of definitions you expect, really; it's impossible to put the classes into mathematical formulas). I gave you a basic idea of where I'm coming from, if you cannot work with that... *shrug*

Just don't make offers, if you cannot fulfill them.

Bye
Thanee