Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Tikiman]

Please read all of page 154 in the complete Psionicist. An Erudite cannot automatically learn or unlock powers from any discipline list (Egoist, Shaper, Telepath, ect). He may unlock 2 disciplines of any level he can manifest from the Psion/Wilder lists. The unique powers per day are from powers on a discipline list or another list such as a mantle or class list. This class is considered one thing outside of non-core. I'm unlocking the class as my 1st level unlock.

OK, I'm not at all trying to disprove you, or browbeat you, or anything like that, but I'm really confused now.

The 40 (+lvl 1 int) powers that you automatically get to know must ALL come from the general psion/wilder list, so no Astral Construct, Energy Missile etc.

Additional powers committed to repertoire (by spending XP) may be psion/wilder powers, or they may be any discipline list power that is 1 level lower then your maximum power level known. Technically there is nothing in the rules about learning Domain powers, but I would assume the would be treated like Discipline list powers.

A level 20 Erudite knows 40+ powers, but is only able to manifest 11 of those powers in a given day. He may manifest any of those powers multiple times, but he cannot manifest all 40+ of his powers known. This is supported by the Behind the Curtain sidebar on page 153, specifically where it says "an erudite is much more versatile at the beginning of an encounter then at the end." This thread may explain it better then I can.

If all of this is what you meant, then just say 'yeah, that's what I meant'. I'm particularly worried about the last point though, as many people (myself included) get confused about it. It is nice to know that this is one of your non-core choices too.

P.S.: Are you planning on taking Temporal Acceleration? Are you using Complete Psionic power errata?

 

[wildstarsreach]

It's a house rule no matter which way you go. There are no rules for what happens when you manifest without displays other then you manifest without displays. The closest analogy, casting without components, imposes a -10 to opponents spellcraft checks but is in every other way 100% identical to regular casting, including readied actions. Also, the XPH specifically states that manifesting a power causes a "faraway gaze, the focus on something other then the material world, and the split-second of focus required to manifest a power." You are 100% within your rights as DM to state that this is all it takes to set off a triggered action. The ball has been in your court from day 1. Now take that ball and hit your players squarely between the legs/eyes (as you see fit).

No kidding....

And I really feel the need to stick my nose into your business and give you a bit of advice about wildstarsreach's upcoming Erudite (sorry ). I would specifically like to call to attention the fact that you are 100% within your rights to deny him access to powers he tries to gain (except the 2/level he gets). Right in the description of the Erudite it states "many [psions] jealousy guard their higher level powers and charge much more (or deny access to them altogether)". This means that he can't just walk down to the local Psi-mart and pick up any power he wants to. Additionally, you have to take into account that you're playing in an Ebberon setting. There are almost no higher level casters in the world.

Nah... I thought that the DM was suppose to give us everything and not make us have to work at it!!!!!

As evidence of this, I cite Sharn: City of Towers. Sharn is one of the largest cities on the planet, and it has the biggest magical goods economy ("If it can be bought, it can be bought here"). On page 23 it states that "There are no resident NPCs in Sharn who can cast spells of 7th level or higher, and few who can cast 6th level spells...are unlikely to exchange their services for gold, dealing instead in favors and services. As a general rule, characters can only purchase spells of 5th level or below. Finding higher-level spells should be part of a quest or adventure." And all of this applies to magic, which is insanely abundant in Eberron. I can only guess that psionic materials would be more difficult to find. This is six times more true for Discipline powers.

Naw.... Ourage of wyrms campaign is set in Eberron.

Now I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, and I apologize if this comes off as bossy, but I really had to throw it out there. wildstarsreach is going to metagame the system to make his character powerful, so I suggest you metagame his power access in return to keep him in line with the rest of the party. He apparently refuses to balance himself in this regard.

I do? How would you know with out having been to our game? Is this a case of where direct knowledge necessary to make a judgement?

Couldn't you do us all a favor and beat him until he makes a character on par with the rest of the group? I recommend Complete Psionic, as it's probably the only thing the book does properly.


Though, actually, in your case it may be best to just apply this system to wildstarsreach only.

Tikiman,
The Erudite is out of the Complete Psionic which unlocks the book and restrictions on the powers as recommended. My god, could psionics possibly be imbalancing or are you being an ......................

 

[wildstarsreach]

OK, I'm not at all trying to disprove you, or browbeat you, or anything like that, but I'm really confused now.

The 40 (+lvl 1 int) powers that you automatically get to know must ALL come from the general psion/wilder list, so no Astral Construct, Energy Missile etc.

Additional powers committed to repertoire (by spending XP) may be psion/wilder powers, or they may be any discipline list power that is 1 level lower then your maximum power level known. Technically there is nothing in the rules about learning Domain powers, but I would assume the would be treated like Discipline list powers.

A level 20 Erudite knows 40+ powers, but is only able to manifest 11 of those powers in a given day. He may manifest any of those powers multiple times, but he cannot manifest all 40+ of his powers known. This is supported by the Behind the Curtain sidebar on page 153, specifically where it says "an erudite is much more versatile at the beginning of an encounter then at the end." This thread may explain it better then I can.

If all of this is what you meant, then just say 'yeah, that's what I meant'. I'm particularly worried about the last point though, as many people (myself included) get confused about it. It is nice to know that this is one of your non-core choices too.

P.S.: Are you planning on taking Temporal Acceleration? Are you using Complete Psionic power errata?

Boy did I miss that. I'll have to think about that. TA, depends, we'll have to see.

 

[Zimbel16]

Sarcasm

Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic. If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).

I should note that one problem with sarcasim is that it can be difficult to recognize, particuarly:
1) In a text only forum.
2) By someone whose first language isn't the one you are using.
Frankly, this is one of the issues that smilies are supposed to address. You might want to consider their use.

 

[Zimbel16]

Nope, I was commenting on what the poster said. Personally I think that is is worth between a 6th to 8th level power. I think that 7th is probably the target.

7 PP's to start, 3 additional PP's at 10th for 20 points and 13 PP's at 13th for 30 points against 5 different energy types for 10 mins/level.

My main problem with this power is that it freely doubles in power 2 CL after you obtain it. I have no problem with +3/augment; I just think that the increase should be paid for.

 

[Zimbel16]

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

This stems from a number of factors:
1.) Feat Shortage. Its difficult to emulate a Wizard when your down two feats right out the door. (Down three or four if you count the cost of actually USING metamagic, but... the Psion is a more casual user of metamagic than the Wizard, so this is a bonus).
1a.) Change Psions to recieve Psycrstals and Enscribe Power Stone for free at first level, same as Scribe Scroll and Familiar. Note that Psicrystals are better in some ways than Familiar... but OTOH, a raven is just a raven. A rock with ectoplasmic legs skittering along the ceiling draws comment.

2.) Any psion is by definition closed off from getting a vast majority of the basic 'wizarding options' that he needs to fill the wizard role in parties.
2a.) Allow Psions to choose freely from other discipline lists, perhaps limit them to one level lower than their current max level knowable.

3.) The psions need to pour PSPs into powers to keep them functional causes him to have shorter legs than the wizard.
3a.) While I'm tempted to suggest 'free scaling' up to the common breakpoint for Psions (IE, up to 10 dice for lvl 3 powers, etc), that might be a bit much.

4.) Psion mainstay powers, being low level, tend to fail in the presence of dispels or Globes.
4a.) Every two PsPs spent to enhance a power should also increase its level by 1 for purposes of effects that tend to cancel or counter said power.

Im sure there are more, but thats a start.

Other than 4a (which I agree with), these are comments on the Psion class, not Psionics.

1) I'm unclear on this one- Psions do get a free feat at LV 1, so it looks like they are 1 feat down. I take your point, but I'd typically prefer 1 feat of choice to 2 "feats" that are chosen for me. In any case, I don't see a huge problem with front-loading the Psion a bit more.

2) Yes. Actually, I think that this is a problem with the XPH (essentially, that most of the weaker abilities will never see play, since any PC will use at most a tiny handful of powers/level). However, were I to give Psions more power, I'd limit it severely. How about:

Feat: With a concentration check (DC 25+ Power level), A Psion may concentrate for 1 minute to temporarily gain a single power. This power must be manifested at most once in the next hour, and for the purposes of manifesting this power, the Psion's Manifester Level is halved. If any other power is manifested prior to this one, the psion looses the ability to manifest this until used again. This ability may be used at most once/day.

As a side note, giving the above feat as a bonus feat at LV 1 would amiliorate your concern #1.

3) I'm afraid that I don't agree here. Autoscaling in a point-based system is nasty. Frankly, I'd more tend to take away (or severely limit) autoscaling for slot-based casters than give it to point-based casters.

4a) I agree. To counterbalance this, I'd give slot-based casters the effect of Heighten Spell for free.

 

[Zimbel16]

PP limit per round

Getting back to one of Thanee's points (Psions can cast many more highest-level equivalents than Slot-based casters), what do you think of the following as a solution?

Current rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level." - SRD

Alternate rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to 90% of your manifester level, rounded up."

Now, at least at higher levels, a psion would be comparing their highest-level abilities with a somewat lower spell-level equivalent.

ML Max PP
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 9
11 10
12 11
13 12
14 13
15 14
16 15
17 16
18 17
19 18
20 18
21 19
22 20
23 21

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Getting back to one of Thanee's points (Psions can cast many more highest-level equivalents than Slot-based casters), what do you think of the following as a solution?

Current rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level." - SRD

Alternate rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to 90% of your manifester level, rounded up."

Now, at least at higher levels, a psion would be comparing their highest-level abilities with a somewat lower spell-level equivalent.

ML Max PP
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 9
11 10
12 11
13 12
14 13
15 14
16 15
17 16
18 17
19 18
20 18
21 19
22 20
23 21

They are in fact related to the Psion.. but then again, I've not noticed many people here to fix the Psychic Warrior or the Soulknife.

RE: Concentration Check to gain powers: Hmm... Id have to think about this. Would kinda tilt the scale to combat nukers, because they could just roll-up those out of combat powers, whereas the out-of-combat power people (Seers, esp.) couldnt return the favour. Also, DC starts way high, and gets way easy. Maybe a lower number, plus 2X power level.

RE: Autoscaling... I personally agree. I think the right answer here might be some combination of 'per fight limits' on day/resource characters, or a 'points recover between fights' system with a much lower PsP total (and some sort of tax on your 'flat' PSPs for any effects you keep up). Say that Hour/Day buffs cost 1/5 of their normal cost, but the points stay spent, and set 10min/lvl buffs at some higher cost (say 1/2 normal cost), points also stay gone as long as the power is up at the start of the fight.

Round buffs are of course going to be cast either in, or in anticipation of, combat, so they stay gone.

RE: Lower max expenditures, slow power knowledge.... well, it would reduce the damage they do, and their overall power, pretty nicely, if thats what your after.


In Closing: I think we need to be somewhat careful not to turn Psionics into Magic, here... not sure what the answer is, and perhaps its not suprising that what happens when people (be it me or you) complain about the differences as making the character too weak/strong, compared to Arcane, and try to fix it.. that we start turning it into Arcane magic.

Tis a conundrum.

 

[IcyCool]

So your conceeding that outside pure, Core Arcane magic, as published, is superior to Psionics?

Not at all. What I said (you can read it, because I said it specifically), was that I think it's a waste of time debating the balance of psionics vs. something I consider broken. You don't balance off the extremes, you balance off the baseline and fix the extremes.

Perhaps you don't agree?

Mind you, -I- suggested complete+SRD as a generous compromise to the opposing position (because we both know who wins if its 'All of 3.5', and it aint you). Generosity in debate has its limits, and thats mine. Im contending that out of all of 3.5, I -only- need the SRD+Complete to pull off a decisive, non-debateable, not-even-interesting victory for the superiority of Arcane casting.

So, "I can win the arguement using the baseline you suggested, so I don't want to even debate it?" I'm confused here. I admit, it's only in my personal experience, but I haven't met anyone (or seen many people on these boards) who don't think the Orb spells from Complete Arcane are stupid/broken. A non-magical Orb of Force? C'mon.

I guess I'll have to come right out and ask:

Does your "soul-crushing" arguement depend on the Orb spells from Complete Arcane? (If you need to include the full progression PrCs for the wizard, or some of the silly stuff from Complete Divine to "win", that's fine, I'll give that a shot.)

I'll reiterate a prior question, out of pure personal curiosity... Creationist or Evolutionist, which are you?

And I'll suggest you read the forum rules for an answer as to why we can't talk about that.

I'll answer you, but I won't be discussing it further on these boards.
[sblock]Evolutionist[/sblock]

 

[Marcus Smythe]

I just dont see how we can get anywhere in any sort of balance debate if you presuppose your ability to throw out anything you wish, by calling it 'Broken'. Then we arent debating balance as between X and Y, but as between X and whatever you fell like Y is at the time.

Or are you strictly limiting your exclusionary principle to Orbs, such that I can safely rely on other things in my arguements, without you having access to a 'doesnt count, broken' whenever I say something you dislike?

You do, I hope, understand my reluctance to debate on the terms as they appear to be offered?

As for balancing off the baseline and fixing the extremes... agreed, wholeheartedly. With that provisio, I will be honest:

1.) I do not belive that any proof or arguement I submit will be in any fashion convincing to you.

2.) I belive that the only chance I have to ever carry the day in such a debate is to make the outcome as one sided as possible, because anything less will simply devolve into a debate about which differences have relatively greater value.

3.) I am not comfortable with my ability, limited to core only, to decisively prove that Arcane is not just better, but so much better as to render the answer obvious. Core only, I belive its pretty close. Further, that would seem to require me to prove a negative 'Psionics is not Broken'. I am much more comfortable proving a positive 'Arcane can do many things better than Psionics'

4.) As, again, we are both well aware of the impact of the baseline assumptions on the character of debate, you will pardon me if I question the purity of your motives, when those pure motives also, purely by happenstance, lead to the set of baseline assumptions that most favour your position and most hinder mine.