Why should I care about the FLGS?

[Umbran]

So would actually trying the products they sell!

This ismply isn't practiciable, Henry. There are too many gaming products out there for the folks at the store to give a solid playtesting to even a small percentage of them.

 

[DaveMage]

Isn't it true that most retail theft is perpetrated by employees?

Interesting question. Let's see what Google has to say...

This site seems to answer in the affirmative:

http://retailindustry.about.com/library/weekly/02/aa021126a.htm

 

[Treebore]

Employee theft has always been a big issue, not just for gaming stores. I know back in the early 80's Ford motor had millions of dollars walking out their doors on a weekly basis. Then they hired guards to inspect employee "bags", etc... Theft dropped way down, but a good bit is still successfully stolen.

 

[woodelf]

The best thing about LGS', in my opinion, is the browse factor. I love browsing through the shelves just to see what's there, whether or not I have any intention of buying. And, at least in this area, complaining about the lack of Shadowrun books.

That's another really good point: browsing is much harder online. Never mind looking at the content of a book--I'm much less likely to stumble upon an RPG book i've never heard of, from a company i've never heard, of online. Yes, there are recommendation features at places like Amazon, but they're not yet terribly useful, and they mostly seem to show me things like what 'm looking at, when they work. I'll still never find something i'm not looking for with them. I'd've never discovered Now Playing or QAGS without an FLGS, just to name two. And that's despite being quite active online, specifically in areas like The Forge, The GPA, and RPGnet that have a significant focus on new small-press games.

 

[Frost]

Here's a reason: good game stores help create gamers. A place like the Game Parlor is a big reason why northern Virginia has a thriving population of gamers. Simply put, online outlets don't have the secondary benefit to the gaming community of helping provide a base of gamers to allow a community to thrive.

No one goes to an online shop looking for gaming products unless he is already a gamer.

Sorry, but I'll kindly have to disagree with you a tad here. True, no non-gamer is going to hit an online shop for gaming products, but I doubt speciality stores such as your FLGS, the Game Parlor in this case, attracts many customers who aren't already gamers. Again, take the Game Parlor, as an example. The only people who frequent that store are gamers. The average person off the street wouldn't know what to make of that store. Actually, I'd bet that most new gamers who lack a "gamer-friend" connection, buy their first books at your local Waldens or Borders.

However, you do have a point that FLGSs such as the Game Parlor do foster a community atmosphere. Still, I can never imagine myself playing there and I would wager 95% of gamers play at home as opposed to a store, even one as nice as the Parlor. Again, give me a discount, hell make it 10% for joining a frequent customer program, and I'll shop your store. At least try to compete with the online shops.

 

[woodelf]

On eBay, everything sells for -EXACTLY- what it is worth, at that very moment. No more and no less.

No. On eBay (and any other auction system), it goes for the highest price that anyone thinks it's worth--even if they're an obsessive nutcase, totally out of touch with reality, or otherwise not anywhere near representative of the market as a whole.

That's why i don't even bother looking at eBay anymore, generally--i got tired of everything being sold for ridiculous prices. If i want to pay close-to-new prices, i'll buy new. I almost always find the same stuff cheaper and standard used-RPG stores (2 local, plus Titan Games, ABE Books, and Alibris--don't even bother with Crazy Egor's anymore, 'cause they rarely have what i want, and it's always much more expensive than i'm willing to pay).

But, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish--the problem with eBay has nothing to do with it being local or global, small or large.

What do I need the local shop for?

A place to game? No, a house provide better privacy.

A chance to learn about gaming? No, the internet gives me that, and no matter how rude the flames I might get - it'll still not only be more polite but look and smell better as well.

A chance to meet fellow gamers? The people who hang out in game stores scare me... They should scare you too, and if they don't, then you scare me.

Sure it's nice to walk in and look at the product, to impulse buy from time to time. It's nice to go in and get a copy of say, Eberron, and not worry about a printing error... But this is after all capitalism we're dealing with, and if the local shop wants to stay, it had better get competitive. Some of those online little guys have no store front, but some of them do.

But why did "get competitive" get narrowed down to "get price competitive"?

But if you go online, and you buy it from somebody who's actually got meat attached to their name, or somebody who supports people who do - then I see nothing wrong with you, and I see nothing wrong with your desire to find the best price and, frankly, the superior customer service an online vendor will give (there's a reason for the 'F' in 'FLGS' and it ain't friendly...).

Well, sounds like the 'F' is missing from your LGS. Thta makes a huge difference. There's no reason to shop at a place that you don't want to shop at, period. In short, it sounds like your LGS is a business that deserves to die, and product price has nothing to do with why.

The interesting question is "Why should i pay more for a book at my FLGS than online?" IOW, assuming your FLGS is actually Friendly (and helpful, and well-stocked, and non-creepy, and so on), when should you purchase from them, and when should you purchase from a cheaper source. Personally, i buy almost all my new stuff from them. Yes, i can often find it cheaper elsewhere. But i don't mind paying a bit more in order to keep the local store around for a number of reasons, such as browsing, special orders without paying for shipping, an easy contact point for local gamers (only used it myself once, but lots of friends have found game groups that way, or play games at the stores), and the chance of exposing non-RPers to RPGs.

Here's a similar situation, in my mind:
There's a little co-op grocery store a block from my house. It has a pretty good selection of produce, dairy, meats, and breads. It has a moderate selection of prepackaged dry goods, frozen goods, candy, etc. Let's face it--it's physically small. If i want a frozen pizza, i get three choices of brand, and none of them are cheap. And so on. There're basically two ways i could deal with this: i could only go to the co-op when necessary, and buy most of my groceries from one of the big-box grocery stores (luckily, that can still be community-friendly, because we have a thriving IGA which is locally-owned and independent); or i could buy as much as possible from the co-op, and only go to the big-box when necessary. I've chosen the latter, even though it means i spend more on my groceries, and have less selection. Because i want the co-op to still be there when i "need" it. And that has value to me, so is worth paying for.

Back to the game store:
Another factor, in my mind, is the product i'm buying. If i really want a game line to survive, i make sure to always buy it's products at full price--i want the retailers to think of my favorite gameline as "this is a sure seller, and makes money for us" not as "well, it moves once we mark it down to half price and barely cover our shipping costs". Frex, i almost always buy my Atlas books from the FLGS, at full price (only real exception is the Penumbra stuff, because it's value to me is usually considerably less than cover price--even though it's probably my favorite D20 System stuff, to date). I want Atlas to survive, and this requires retailers seeing their products as valuable (read: good profit margin) and thus ordering them. However, i don't think i'd care if D20 System evaporated, so on those rare occasions when i find a D20 System product i'm interested in, i have no compunction about waiting until i find it somewhere for cheap, or ordering it online. It's simple rational capitalist consumer behavior: this product is worth X to me, so i'll only buy it at that price or less. For game books/lines/companies i really love, 'X' is "the price they ask for it, because i trust they've set a price that will make it viable for them to continue publishing new stuff". For those i only have marginal interest in, I might set 'X' at a considerably lower price--precisely because i wouldn't feel that badly if the product hadn't existed, or further ones of similar quality never came into existence. And, in those latter cases, i have no compunction about buying it online. In fact, i'd rather do that than buy from the FLGS at a loss [to them]--let them sell it at full price to someone who thinks it's worth full price.

I guess the one thing i really don't understand is those who consider all the factors that matter to them (not only individual product's price, but the continued financial health of the retailer, publisher, authors, etc.), decide the book is worth it, and look for it cheaper anyway. IOW, if the book is worth $30 to you, and the retail price is $30, then why buy it for $25? Sure, if the book is only worth $25 to you, buy it at that. But if you'd buy it at full retail if there were no other choice, why not buy it at full retail when there is another choice? I don't understand the "buy it as cheaply as possible" mentality.

 

[Storm Raven]

Sorry, but I'll kindly have to disagree with you a tad here. True, no non-gamer is going to hit an online shop for gaming products, but I doubt speciality stores such as your FLGS, the Game Parlor in this case, attracts many customers who aren't already gamers. Again, take the Game Parlor, as an example. The only people who frequent that store are gamers. The average person off the street wouldn't know what to make of that store.

In the case of the Game Parlor, they sell such a wide array of games that they draw a fair amount of non-gamers in. And more importantly, they draw gamers of a wide variety of types in: board gamers, miniatures gamers, card gamers, and role players. There is significant cross-over, and a large number of connections that keep people involved. If a crossroads type place like that didn't exist, it is likely that fewer people who become gamers would stay gamers (drifting away because of a lack of people to game with), and many others are converted from one type of gaming to another, and still more are drawn in to begin with (I've seen several people there buying their first game books).

However, you do have a point that FLGSs such as the Game Parlor do foster a community atmosphere. Still, I can never imagine myself playing there and I would wager 95% of gamers play at home as opposed to a store, even one as nice as the Parlor.

You might want to explain that to the large number of people who play there on a regular basis. The gaming area is packed on most nights and weekends. Many people don't game at the store to be sure, but many find other gamers there, or have gamed there in the past.

Again, give me a discount, hell make it 10% for joining a frequent customer program, and I'll shop your store. At least try to compete with the online shops.

They do. They aren't competing on price, which is the only thing that seems to matter to you though. They are competing by offering a large gaming area, lots of support for the gaming community in the form of the enormous array of notices posted and events sponsored there, a helpful staff, a clean environment, a wide array of products other than just game books, and serving as the nucleus for a thriving gaming community. I don't mind throwing a couple extra bucks to buy a luxury item in exchange for supporting all that.

 

[Frost]

They do. They aren't competing on price, which is the only thing that seems to matter to you though.

Bingo. That's my bottomline. I have a very limited gaming budget, so I try to get as much bang for my buck. I guess that's really the core of this debate: are you willing to pay more to support a game store? Since I don't employ the other services that some game stores offer (playing store, networking, etc.), my answer is "no." However, obviously there are plenty of people who do, so bully for them. In any event, Raven, I hope you don't think I'm arguing with you, just explaining my perspective.

 

[DreadPirateMurphy]

As for bringing in other people to the Game Parlor, I have to agree with Storm Raven. More than once I've seen folks go in asking about board games, or comics, or something not directly related to RPGs, wargames, or CCGs. I've also seen parents with pokemunchkins who undoubtedly get exposed to other products while they are in the store. (Having said that, undoubtedly most gamers get introduced through word-of-mouth. I remember being intrigued by the kid with the book that had the cool red demon statue on the cover.)

Having read the posts, the reasons given so far seem to be:

1) The game store serves as a center for the gaming community (assuming it is a "good" store).

2) Many game stores provide services such as organizing or hosting matches and special ordering products.

3) Stores are convenient if you have to have the latest release RIGHT NOW.

4) Browsing the racks is fun, and is more likely to result in serendipitous discoveries of unknown or out of print games.

The primary disadvantages of the FLGS is that it is a small business, and so it suffers from typical small business concerns:

1) It is hard to compete on price with online retailers.

2) They have to worry about theft, inventory, face-to-face customer service, etc., which can result in annoyances to the customer.

Assuming the store is well run, then the primary difference is price. If customers are willing to pay for minor luxuries, then the store will survive. If they aren't, then they won't. I buy products online, but when it comes down to it, I also go to the FLGS because the advantages listed above are worth sometimes paying higher prices (at least to me).

 

[WizarDru]

I now restrict myself to impulse buys at any gaming shop in the area. Of the three local game shops that remain to me, all of them have messed up an order one way or the other.

Compleat Strategist: Good Selection, poor service. Depending on the day, I may get a knowledgable person...or not. I attempted to special order in some d20 products (such as several BadAxe books). Twice. They screwed up both times, selling my order once, and then failing to order it the second time, and then failing to note when it came in, and selling it again. Impulse buys only, mostly board games or reaper miniatures.

Allied Hobbies: Special ordered twice from them. Messed up both orders, although they eventually got them right. One knowledgable person, three not-so-knowledgeable people who don't even know their own policies. Impulse buy only, and rarely. Service varies wildly. No gaming space - but since I don't game in the store anyways, it's a moot point.

Out of Time: Friendly service, high prices and long delays when ordering items in. Impulse buy; convienent to work, but higher prices and taxes. More of a comic shop that sells games to supplement their stock.

Showcase Comics: Excellent selection, huge gaming space with free demos for games and painting, lost of comics and graphic novels. Terrible service. Too far to drive in my limited free time.

Between the Books: Awesome, personal service. Owner is extremely cool guy, and prices are good. Selection is fairly good if unpredictable, but service, while friendly is scatterbrained, at times. Orders get mixed up, lost or forgotten. However, the owner and staff were always friendly, and often would make good guesses about purchasing habits. Distance is too far for regular patronage any longer, though.

I went around to all of these stores to try and buy Mutants&Masterminds, a few months ago. None of them had it, and none of them knew if they could get it.


Compare with my experiences with:

Gameoutfitter.com: Every D&D mini order I've placed has been processed correctly. Warnings were sent when they were shorted by WotC. Prices are excellent. E-mail attention is prompt, and shipping was cheap and swift, with automated e-mails detailing tracking numbers arriving as soon as the item shipped.

Amazon.com: Very large discounts, quick search and ordering. Stock somewhat inconsistent, but service excellent. Free shipping with large enough orders, and never had a problem with any materials shipped, which usually tend to arrive earlier than promised.

bn.com: discount for members of B&N's 'club', good selection, deep discounts and excellent service. Sometimes better than amazon, sometimes worse.

taloncomics.com: ENworld member, always very helpful. Prices are competitve, and his selection is reasonable. Had some problems with order, but he handled it professionally and quickly.

walmart.com: Deep discounts, moderately poor service. Poor selection.

In short, if a LGS wants my service, they need to be reasonably close to me, offer me good service and be reasonably price competitive. Taloncomics was probably one of the best compromises, but I'm not going to willingly throw money to local retailer just to prop them up. I can and have driven an hour to 'Between the Books', driving past other retailers, to do business there: the service can make it worth it, to me.

Going into a store like the Strategist, where the staff may be working, or may be too busy gaming to answer a question or ring up my order, is no longer on my short list of things to do.