Why simpler - much simpler - is better

[Argyle King]

Speaking of GURPS, there is an "Ultra-Lite" version of the rules which is free and fits on one page.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ultra-lite/

 

[Desdichado]

It's fine for you that you are an adult living in a Western nation and have only friends with money. But what are kids, or the majority of people living in Venezuela, supposed to do? Should I be apologizing somehow that most of the world doesn't have what you have?
[...]
But maybe part of the turnoff I experience with complicated roleplaying games is the attitude of people who play them which says that of course everybody has the money to burn on these endless, unnecessary rulebooks, and screw anybody who doesn't.

This is an aging hobby. Some people worry that there aren't enough kids picking it up for it to last. Now, I don't think rpgs are genuinely dying out. But if the games were simpler, easier to understand, and yes cheaper, then doesn't it stand to reason that more people would grow up enjoying them, too?

Therefore, for the sake of the hobby, we should be imported subsidized and free versions of games to Venezuela! Just what they want, no doubt, in Venezuela...

 

[Janx]

Therefore, for the sake of the hobby, we should be imported subsidized and free versions of games to Venezuela! Just what they want, no doubt, in Venezuela...

I'd be careful of getting into political waters with that comment.

I don't know what kids in poor places are supposed to do to improve their lot in life. But I don't think complaining about the cost of sailing is going to help those kids get into sailing. A hobby has costs. Some more than others.

The real problem is why don't those kids' parents have money for cheap hobbies for their kids. Just as Sailing is for people with lots of money to spend. RPGs is for people with some small amount of money to spend. Folks below that line are tough out of luck for lots of hobbies, not just RPGs. So let's not take it out on RPGs that some kids are left out.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It may it work for you, but it definitely works for some.

Immersion doesn't have so much to do with the complexity of the rules than the preparedness & rules familiarity of the players and GM. The more prepared & familiar they are, the fewer times they need to reference the rules duering the game. The fewer times they reference the rules, the more mental energy can be spent on immersion.

This. A thousand times this. The biggest barrier to immersion isn't so-called disassociated mechanics. It isn't rules heavy or rules light. It isn't ... just about anything I've ever seen a theorist work on. It's simple familiarity. You can only immerse once you've accepted the rules and don't need to think about them. Every time you look something up that's non-trivial* you've just destroyed immersion because you can't accept the rules as you simply don't understand them or you wouldn't need to look them up.

* An example of a trivial lookup would be a Rolemaster table.

 

[Janx]

This. A thousand times this. The biggest barrier to immersion isn't so-called disassociated mechanics. It isn't rules heavy or rules light. It isn't ... just about anything I've ever seen a theorist work on. It's simple familiarity. You can only immerse once you've accepted the rules and don't need to think about them. Every time you look something up that's non-trivial* you've just destroyed immersion because you can't accept the rules as you simply don't understand them or you wouldn't need to look them up.

* An example of a trivial lookup would be a Rolemaster table.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

After d20, any non-d20 game I've wished I had adapted rules/setting for that game in d20. From Vampire to Star trek to Shadowrun. I don't have to think about d20, like I have to do for a new ruleset.

 

[jtolman3]

This. A thousand times this. The biggest barrier to immersion isn't so-called disassociated mechanics. It isn't rules heavy or rules light. It isn't ... just about anything I've ever seen a theorist work on. It's simple familiarity. You can only immerse once you've accepted the rules and don't need to think about them. Every time you look something up that's non-trivial* you've just destroyed immersion because you can't accept the rules as you simply don't understand them or you wouldn't need to look them up.

* An example of a trivial lookup would be a Rolemaster table.

And I would disagree. I have run Rolmaster for years and I find in Both very simple to play with lots of crunchyness to it.
Sure it may have tables, but it doesn't involve trivial Look up unless the gm/Players Makes it that way. Much like any other system.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And I would disagree. I have run Rolmaster for years and I find in Both very simple to play with lots of crunchyness to it.
Sure it may have tables, but it doesn't involve trivial Look up unless the gm/Players Makes it that way. Much like any other system.

I think you've misunderstood me. Trivial look-up is look up that takes almost no time and doesn;t break the flow. If Rolemaster has non-trivial lookup, either you don't use all those tables (like the weapon vs armour tables), you've memorised all the tables, or it takes a significant amount of time to look things up after you've made the attack roll.

 

[jtolman3]

I think you've misunderstood me. Trivial look-up is look up that takes almost no time and doesn;t break the flow. If Rolemaster has non-trivial lookup, either you don't use all those tables (like the weapon vs armour tables), you've memorised all the tables, or it takes a significant amount of time to look things up after you've made the attack roll.

You see, "I don't think that word means what you think it means".

Fristly:
Trivial
1.
of little value or importance.
synonyms:unimportant, banal, trite, commonplace, insignificant, inconsequential, minor, of no account, of no consequence, of no importance;
antonyms:important, significant, life-and-death


If the Gm is spending time having you roll and look up results for trivial things, then ya I could see people not enjoying the game.
I think your looking for another word. I am blanking on what a good one would be.

But to go by the real explanation of what you mean. Yes I use the tables. Though I have an Organized book/binder with swapable slip sheet pages so that I only have in it those pages I expect to use.
Though Back in the day, I used 1 binder with all the pages slipped in and was very adept and quick and moving to the correct page and finding the result I needed.
Gms who like Rolemaster tend to become very good at this.
As for maneuvers, one doesn't actually need a chart, one can reduce it to applying difficulty and situational modifiers and 100+ is a success.

The Players that I have had over the years that have been introduced to, and stayed in my games, loved the crunchyness of the RM combat system and skill system.

Now, ICE has a Combat program that is available (you have to purchases the tables which are not yet available but will be soon) That handles all the combat tables,and application of results, to make combat resulotion even faster, opening the game for greater ease to those who liked the crunchiness but not the table look up.

http://www.web.com.au/rolemaster/minion/#

 

[jtolman3]

perhaps you meant "Time Consuming Minutia"

 

[Cadence]

You see, "I don't think that word means what you think it means".

Fristly: Trivial
1. of little value or importance.
synonyms:unimportant, banal, trite, commonplace, insignificant, inconsequential, minor, of no account, of no consequence, of no importance;
antonyms:important, significant, life-and-death

If the Gm is spending time having you roll and look up results for trivial things, then ya I could see people not enjoying the game. I think your looking for another word. I am blanking on what a good one would be.

I think he was referring to the act of looking it up as being "trivial" and not the thing that was being rolled for, and using it in the sense of something that is easy to do (an action that takes an insignificant, inconsequential, or minor amount of time). I think that's a fairly common usage in math anyway...

"4.b. (of a theorem, proof, or the like) simple, transparent, or immediately evident."

See also:

"child's play
1. Something very easy to do.
2. A trivial matter."