Why so anti-Palladium

[sword-dancer]

Or characters who have 100x the hitpoints of everyone else (rifts). Or the ability to play a dragon at first level without serious concessions.

Yes you can .

If that`s unbalancing, then the GM had fumbled.

Rift CCs aren`t meant to be equal.
I´d played in a campaign were my demigod PC was the "weakest" in Raw combat Power, but she was also the most flexible of all PCs.

I´ve run a game with Normal PCs.

If heruns Rifts

a DM must chose
Which Power Level the campaign should`ve, or if he decide to give it free rain.
But if he ignores it, HE made the mistake, not Palladium.

 

[kenobi65]

So, I'm reading the latest Knights of the Dinner Table (#99) today. On p. 3 is an ad entitled "Discover the Palladium Megaverse (R)". From a look and layout standpoint, this ad is fundamentally identical to the ads that they used to run in Dragon in the 80s and early 90s. Two columns of text, one b/w line illustration. Timelessness? Dire need of an update? Got me...

 

[Psion]

Balance is all in the eye of the beholder.

Indeed. But I was using balance in a very specific context here. Whether or not you want to call it a balance problem, that level and XP don't create a sensible mapping to character ability speaks to a failing of the system.

 

[Particle_Man]

I remember a Rifts game where I played a Cyber-Knight who, just for fun, took all of the skills that a Wilderness Scout is good at. He was better than the Wilderness Scout at the Wilderness Scout's own game. Plus he had a mega-damage sword. Admittedly, it was a crappy sword, compared to all the mega-damage stuff out there, and considering that I was honour-bound not to use it except in mega-damage situations...

But no. Rifts characters are so imbalanced it is not funny. Because of these extra concerns that the GM then has to balance out, it takes more work to run a game of Rifts than to run a game of D&D, period. Also, combat is very slow, especially when one guy gets 5 attacks a round and another gets 1.

It is really too bad, since I like Cyber-Knights. But then D&D came out with the SoulKnife in the Psionics Book (and the core version in the Expanded Psionics Book) so I am happy.

 

[Gundark]

Which Power Level the campaign should`ve, or if he decide to give it free rain.
But if he ignores it, HE made the mistake, not Palladium.

I agree and disagree...while I think that it's the DMs decision to disallow unbalancing things from the game (there are things in d20 that I find unbalancing). However Rifts has been out there since what 1991? 14-15 years? And it's still in it's first edition. There is 0 playtesting with their sourcebooks (read the accounts of former employees). Also however if the game developer expects to keep people buying they should produce products that are mostly balanced...Palladium has not taken any such steps.

 

[Crothian]

a DM must chose
Which Power Level the campaign should`ve, or if he decide to give it free rain.
But if he ignores it, HE made the mistake, not Palladium.

One of the problems is the game doesn;t tell you this. So, if you are new to the system and new to gaming you can easily make the mistake. It is Palladium's fault for not explaining this and letting people stumble through.

 

[LostSoul]

I remember a Rifts game where I played a Cyber-Knight who, just for fun, took all of the skills that a Wilderness Scout is good at. He was better than the Wilderness Scout at the Wilderness Scout's own game.

Which is, in my opinion, the only important part of the balance equation. I don't care if you can blow up worlds, just as long as I've got my niche. I experienced a similar situation when I was playing.

Also, combat is very slow, especially when one guy gets 5 attacks a round and another gets 1.

I think the pace of combat in different games is mainly a factor of the players involved. I once played with a group that took one hour to go through a single round. There were six players, but that's way too long. Especially for 6th-level characters.

And I've played in palladium's fantasy game with 4 players and a hell of a lot of bad guys and the combat took maybe half an hour.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Indeed. But I was using balance in a very specific context here. Whether or not you want to call it a balance problem, that level and XP don't create a sensible mapping to character ability speaks to a failing of the system.

You said:

"A level means something in 3e. If you play some powerful race or class in 3e, you pay for it. Compare palladium, whose XP shift between Vagabond and (frex) T-man or Dragon is a joke when it comes to equalizing PC power."

I disagree with the second part. Equal power levels is not the "end all, be all" of game system balance. Thats how D&D (more or less) looks at it. Well, thats fine. But it doesn't mean that other systems who don't do it that way are "failed systems". It means that they don't necessarily look at gaming the same way that D&D does. If anything, there doesn't need to be EXP differences in Palladium OCCs/RCCs since Rogue Scholars are just as good at what they do as dragons are at what they do. Maybe even better. Neither of them should be penalized.

As for the first part, the real problem is that the vast majority of of palladium classes get the bulk of their ability/power/importance at first level. Leveling up is better and easier for the skilled guys and tougher and less useful for the combat characters. So there is technically a balancing of power by the uppers levels. Sort of the way Wizards take over the game in D&D games at later levels...hmmm....

Again, these problems are really only a problem in Rifts. The XP differentials are actually effective in the SDC games, since the differences aren't wild in those between classes. Heroes Unlimited is a SDC game, but it lies somewhere in the middle. Levels mean a lot more in HU than in any of the other palldium system games.

Most problems mentioned on this thread and the millions like it across the net point to the only thing everyone (even many palladium fans) can pretty much agree on...Palladium needs a REAL revision of its system.

 

[warlord]

Rifts came out in 1983 buddy not 1991 and your forgeting Palladium does more then Rifts their SDC system is a hell of a lot more balanced.

 

[Krieg]

Rifts came out in 1983 buddy not 1991

Care to place a wager on that...buddy?