Why THAT change? (gnome bard)

[Uriel]

Well..Gnomes are my fave Race. I am a Musician myself and I have always liked Bards. I'm pretty stoked about Gnome Bards
(I already play one in a Messageboard game).
I do agree that the change is an abrupt one.

One can always house rule favored classes. Forest Gnomes have Druid as their Favored Class in my campaign, for example.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Well, I can't speak for WotC, but I had already changed gnomes to bards instead of illusionists.

1) All favored classes are now primary classes.
2) The gnomes abilities are also on the bard list.
3) Gnomes are portrayed as "music-loving".
4) Gnomes have always (in my mind) been thief/illusionists; bard is the best single-class representation of this.
5) The illusionist thing never made sense to me anyway.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

bards not good choice for multiclass?

There is a very good article on the 3rdedition.org website about multiclassing bards. I used to think the same thing...multiclassing bards is useless... now I know better. The way to make a Bard a very good character is by doing just that.. multiclassing. The bard has the same skills as most of the other classes and lots of skill points to boot. Even ignoring the bardic music stuff they make one of the best options for multiclassing. You play a Bard (+2 will and +2 ref, good skills) who, when he finds he needs a bit of a boost in fighting he takes a fighter level (+1 BAB, +1 feat, +2 fort), then he takes another level in Bard and then finds he needs to be a better thief and takes a level in Rogue (+2 ref, sneak attack, good skills), he then continues as a bard until he realizes he needs a few more spells than he has so he takes a level in wizard or sor (+2 will, familiar, and more spells). Bards are the quintessential jack-of-all-trades and when plays that way they can be the backbone of a party. When the fighter goes down the bards holds the line until the cleric can heal the fighter...when the rogue fails to save versus a trap the bard can go in and get him...when the wizard is dropped at the end of the grand finale and that big bad boss need a quick end and the can't be hit with melee weapons the Bard fires off magic missile and toasts him.

I have seen this played a number of times now and can attest to its usefullness. Even though I don't want to play a Bard, I deffinitely want one by my side to fill in gaps.

thanks all
Kal

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

-Bards are knowledgeable as all get-go (all knowledge skills as class skills, 6+ int mod skill points in 3.5, bardic knowledge ability, not to mention a really beefy class skill list). This fits better with the ideal of gnomes as wise, knowledgeable tricksters, in my oppinion. The kind of people who know the answer to where the Secret Tome of Rumu'ul lies, but you'd have to win that knowledge from them first. Particularly the higher skill points are a nice way to make 'em know more without resorting back to the old racial int bonus.

I go this one further, and give the (modified) Second Edition Gnomish ability modifiers: +2 INT, -2 WIS. It better supports the idea of knowledgeable Gnomes, even non-Bardic ones, and helps make them more three-dimensional in my opinion-- simple two stat adjustments give fewer hooks to use to differentiate between two races.

Not to mention, I don't think it's "resorting" to the old Int bonus, because I've always agreed with it. It makes sense to me.

 

[Darklone]

Bards can't cast Magic Missile.

But yes, otherwise my multiclassed bard always was the backbone of the party.

• I scouted with the rogue (in that case, I even was better at it and I had Track).
• I could heal a little bit... enough in the middle of combat to get a comrade back up to his feet while the cleric was busy. Tumble helped to get there safely.
• We had a long list of battles where the +1 from the bards song saved the day.
• Rage + flanked sneak attack now and then killed more than one opponent who survived the initial onslaught of the fighter.
• Saved the monk or the wizard more than once when playing tank for just one or two rounds. Tumble, fighting defensively and Expertise plus a shield or defensive two weapon feats help to keep a fighter at bay for some time.
• More than once, the bard was the only one who had a See invisibility left to cast.
• Evasion from the rogue levels left him as last man standing in a fireball fusillage more than once.

The bard multiclass is nice even at 3rd edition to fill all holes in a party (and THIS party had a lot of holes). You might not be the big hero in the front line... but you are the guy who gets the ears of the sneaker at your wizards back.

Gnomes are tricksters...in more than one way. So being mainly bard and combining it with some other classes really fits them better than illusionist IMHO.

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I am more worried about some spells they took out of the bards spell list like Message... Protection from Evil... Mage Armour doesn't really matter with the new casting in light armour.

Edit: Phew Message is 0 level now

 

[Al]

I'd be inclined to disagree.

Gnomes have undergone a decline in the 'seriousness' of them as a sensible race. Gnomes are beginning to decline to a sort of 'comic relief' type race, particular in the context of popular fantasy movies- even dwarves were undermined as a serious race in the LOTR: Two Towers movie.

The gnomish bard is the final nail in the coffin, and misunderstands the whole gnomish ethos. Someone mentioned the left-brain/right-brain divide when I posted this on another thread.

Examining the gnomish description from the PHB:
'Gnomes are welcome everywhere as technicians, alchemists and inventors'.
'they apply the same dedication to more practical arts, such as engineering'
'share...their curiosity about mechanical devices'
'Gnomes who settle in human lands are commonly gemcutters, mechanics, sages or tutors'.

Do we see a common thread? Gnomes go for practical, material and mechanical arts, and whilst pranksters, prefer sciences to arts. Whilst they no doubt welcome bards, they do not incline towards them. What's their dominant alignment in the law-chaos axis? Neutral. So having a favoured class with a non-lawful alignment is bizarre. The MM underlines the notion of the scientific, mechanical orientated gnome: 'skilled engineers', 'practical experience'. They are culturally empirical and scientific, not abstract and artistic.

The argument that 'well, elves are wizards, so gnomes can't be a subset of wizards' is nonsense. Why not let gnomes become wizards, fitting with the notion of empirical practical learning and an emphasis on knowledge, and let elves take bardic favoured class?

Consider the elven description in the PHB:
'They are well known for their poetry, dance, song, lore and magical arts'.
'skill with sword, bow and battle strategy'
'love freedom, variety and self-expression. They lean strongly towards...chaos'
'Elves encountered in human lands are commonly wandering minstrels, favoured artists, or sages'

Indeed, the elven description is almost archetypal of a bardic character concept. They lean towards chaos (appropriate for a non-lawful class), are driven by wanderlust, have some martial weapon proficiency, a high cultural emphasis on a combination of the fine arts, magic, and swordplay/archery. Which classes do we know that combine art, magic and some magical prowess? I'll give a clue- not the wizard.

The point is that the gnomish bard and elven wizard set up a fundamental contradiction within the cultural emphases and the mechanical emphases between the races. It's the old problem of the crunch not matching the fluff. Sure, you can just about justify gnomish bards and elven wizards in the way you can't justify ogre diviners, but it makes far more logical sense given their self-defined culture to make make gnomes have a wizardly favoured class, and elves a bardic one.

End of rant- thanks for reading

 

[DonAdam]

With their class skills, bards make better illusionists than illusionists do in 3e, and more so in 3.5e.

How one could get by as an illusionist without bluff, perform, etc is beyond me.

Also, as someone else pointed out, it resembles the illusionist/thief, which was the gnome's real favored class before favored class existed. In that way, I think this is much more in the spirit of the gnomes of yesteryear, before 3e made halflings into kender and began blurring the distinction between them.

 

[Christian]

I would be astounded if that wasn't changed in 3.5. With bardic music being revamped a bit, I'd expect their abilities to become level-based instead. Pure speculation of course, but what you're describing was one of the major loopholes in the 3e rules...

Dang it, you were right. Those troglodyte-loving blackguards.

My DM seems to be phasing in selected 3.5 rules to our game. I hope he doesn't snag that one-my bard/rogue will be so neutered. (Or should that be 'spayed', for a female? Or maybe I shouldn't think about these things so much. )

Actually, trade-offs will be OK ... no arcane spell failure for her mithril shirt ... extra skill points ... HEY! See Invisibility is 3rd level now! Gonna be hard to ret-con that one ... Ooh! Comprehend Languages! And Message is 0-level! Switch out Daze for Message at 0-level, Message for Comp Languages on her 1st level list ... Ooh! And Alter Self to replace See Invis! I love that spell! Yeah, I'll live.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Just a quick comment...

"bards can't cast magic misile'

no, they can't... but where I placed that comment in my post was after I talked about multiclassing as a wizard/sor.... hence they prolly *would* know magic missile in that case;P

not to nitpick, just wanted to let everyone know I that know what's on the spell list and it wasn't just a case of stupid newbie syndrome or some such

thanks all
Kal.