why the attraction to "low magic"?

[shadow]

I prefer low magic because it gives the campaign a sense of mystery, and emulates the myths and stories that I grew up with. When magic becomes too common, it becomes simply another technology. I've seen campaigns where the prevalence of magic got to the point of being silly. Not that such campaigns can't be fun, but in the long run they lack consistancy and "believability". I prefer campaigns where magic is rare, but powerful. In my campaign worlds mages aren't penalized, but they aren't a dime a dozen like in so many other worlds. They are likely to be mysterious figures that are both reveared and feared by the people (don't meddle in the affairs of wizards...). This style of campaign emulates many of the fantasy stories and myths that I grew up with better than the "magic as technology" paradigm found in many D&D campaigns.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

It's not D&D's fault that your players are stubborn.

Ahem. :\

Well, it isn't.

I mean, I assume that your players who kick and scream when they can't just tell you what they want and deduct the cost from their treasure are stubbornly insisting on this despite your having repeatedly told them you don't want to run it that way.

In other words, if they whine, it's either your fault for not communicating it effectively or it's their fault for being jerks.

It's got nothing to do with the magic level assumed by D&D.

 

[DragonLancer]

14th level wizard, spell access as per RAW
9 magic items
- Staff, 4-5 functions, strongest power 4th level spell at 12th level effect
- +2 Ring
- Book that absorbs spell scrolls
- 6 ioun stones, 2 dead, others with a variety of powers

I think thats about right for that character and level. I would be happy with that in a low-mid average game. But it would also depend on what everyone else in the party had.

Low-magic isn't just about items, its about how magic is seen and used in the game society. I dislike the idea of the teleport circles between cities, anti-scry spells in the king's chambers...etc. That sort of thing destroys the suspension of disbelief and is far too high-fantasy for my tastes.

 

[JDowling]

...I dislike the idea of the teleport circles between cities, anti-scry spells in the king's chambers...etc. That sort of thing destroys the suspension of disbelief and is far too high-fantasy for my tastes.

I agree with you that it's not the flavor I prefer, but it just begs for someone to say something along the lines of: "If there aren't anti-scry spells in place, or anti-magic spells in place, couldn't a powerful wizard just scry-buff-port assassinate anyone they wanted? wouldn't there be no military secret plans as soon as an enemy wizard scryed? If you say they don't scry, why not? are they dumb?" et cetera.

I think in a way lacking those protections (while having the same magic) destroys the suspension of disbelief as much as having them ruins the "feel" that you may prefer for magic.

That's the crux of the issues with magic that I don't like... sort of a "rock and a hard place" the way the magic is in game. Taken with: "if you can do it, someone will" so it's hard to imagine that no one thought to scry into the king's chambers.

If I were a king - I'd have my court mage setting all the magical protections and traps i could.

 

[Chimera]

In other words, if they whine, it's either your fault for not communicating it effectively or it's their fault for being jerks.

Given that I quit running that game cold turkey and no longer speak to those people, I'll go with the second one.

But seriously, it's an attitude I've seen often enough. Players whining to the GM that "You gave us this item, why won't you let us sell it?"


Getting back to the Arms Bazaar issue that others have mentioned...

In these foreign open markets, you're talking about an RPG for $25 or an AK-47 for $150 and stuff like that. Well, at $50 per GP (I use $200 IMC, with different economics), that's 5sp for the RPG and 3gp for the AK-47. In other words, these are equivalent to common weapons you find at any arms market or blacksmith's shop in Faerun, Greyhawk, etc. Come back and talk to me when you see $100,000 (2,000gp) missiles and $1.8 million (36,000gp) tanks and aircraft lying around in these open markets.

Think about that conversion for a minute. Would you pay $37,500 for a Potion of Rage? How hard would you think about it before using it?

 

[Doug McCrae]

The idea I'm going with at the moment for the DnD world I'm working on is that the world is in a sense high magic. There's tons of weird monsters out there for the PCs to fight, lots of dungeons with magic items. However human society doesn't currently have access to it because almost all the magic is locked up in the tombs and lairs. I see there as being very few high level NPCs out there, maybe none at all.

So in a way the world will progress as the PCs do. They start at 1st level and the society around them will be quite low power/low magic. The world itself will contain many bizarre wonders though - living mountains, cloud castles, glass fortresses, stone forests, etc - but they're not particular useful like teleport circles. Most are likely to be somewhat distant from the human lands also.

As the PCs go up levels and delve in dungeons they will be unlocking the secrets of earlier, more advanced times and will be personally moving from low to high magic. If they choose to use the secrets they've uncovered to benefit society then that's fine, the world around them will change. If they don't, it won't.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I agree with you that it's not the flavor I prefer, but it just begs for someone to say something along the lines of: "If there aren't anti-scry spells in place, or anti-magic spells in place, couldn't a powerful wizard just scry-buff-port assassinate anyone they wanted? wouldn't there be no military secret plans as soon as an enemy wizard scryed? If you say they don't scry, why not? are they dumb?" et cetera.

I think in a way lacking those protections (while having the same magic) destroys the suspension of disbelief as much as having them ruins the "feel" that you may prefer for magic.

That's the crux of the issues with magic that I don't like... sort of a "rock and a hard place" the way the magic is in game. Taken with: "if you can do it, someone will" so it's hard to imagine that no one thought to scry into the king's chambers.

If I were a king - I'd have my court mage setting all the magical protections and traps i could.

Unfortunately, not every villain likes having his mobility restricted like that - and eventually, it just becomes a hidden nerf.

"Sorry player sorcerer, you can't scry on him. I decided to give everyone you wanted to scry on an item that negates your scrying."

 

[Taneel BrightBlade]

low magic soulds fun I want to play a low magic game

 

[I'm A Banana]

Largely using mythological heroes as your basis for a 'mythic' flavor you want to emulate specifically is deeply flawed.

The reason Odysseus survived his epic quest? DM fiat. Same reason he went on it.

The reason Achilles stayed in Troy? DM fiat. Same reason he went there in the first place.

The reason Frodo could chuck the ring into Mount Doom without getting spotted? DM fiat.

Can you capture the *feel* of Odysseus in D&D's RAW? Absolutely. Your items are bronze. The adventures you went on helped you uncover the items you need because of the Gods' intervention. You are heroic in statistics, in level, and in power. True, it depends upon your items, but so what? If you never take off your +2 codpiece, then no one needs to know that's what's giving you +2 to your saving throws vs. 'shots to teh junk.' Introduce sailing adventuers, and a bunch of 1st level mooks to compare yourself with, and perhaps a vengeful deity, and you're golden.

Can you capture Odysseus himself? Pheh. This is a game, not poetry, I don't want my character's life to hinge on weather the DM decides arbitrarily that Possiedon is having a bad day or not. It might make for an interesting epic poem, but it is crap for a D&D game.

I think my own house rules that keep the high-magic feel, but add low-loot to the pile work especially well for mythological-style battles, because even those who weren't the spawn of gods were their favored. Gilgamesh had Inana, Odysseus had Athena, Achilles had Thetis and Zeus, Heracles had Zeus, Paris had Aphrodite....my rules allow them to gain a bit of loot, and still have powers that depend on the gods that take an interest in them...Gilgamesh would've had the powers of a Belt of Giant Strength even if he didn't wear the belt.

In addition, I think those who see magic as horribly logic-destroying in D&D have either had crappy DM's, or have had a nigh-impossible level of metropolises in their campaign. Heck, even then, the maximum GP you can buy in magic shops is 3,000. You can keep the DMG-recommended level of magic, but make it more useful...look at Eberron: the low-level magic in this campaign is readily available, but that doesn't ruin the scary and intimidating feel of high-level magic at all. The reason is because most people are NPC classes, most people are low level, and only a select few (the PC's, and a few powerful NPC's) have class levels above 10 at all. And Eberron in no way limits the power of magic in it's setting...it just uses the setting to keep everyday magic common, but weak. Read the rules, see how others are doing it, and then maybe your complaints about too much magic will at least be informed with what is actually suggested, rather than the inflated boogeyman of everyone getting cheap +5 swords.

 

[JDowling]

Unfortunately, not every villain likes having his mobility restricted like that - and eventually, it just becomes a hidden nerf.

"Sorry player sorcerer, you can't scry on him. I decided to give everyone you wanted to scry on an item that negates your scrying."

I agree.

I was just saying: "If you are powerful and have something a wizard would want, why wouldn't you have anti-scrying devices and anti-teleport devices set up around you?"

-I can't think of a reason that someone would purposefully leave such a wide avenue of danger open if they could close it.
-I don't like the effects that has on the game.
-I don't want to just "DM Fiat" it away b/c i want to have a reasonable world.
-Therefore - I either need to change the setting from the standard, or change the magic.

Basically i was just explaining why i like low / rare / new magic setting ideas, that's all