Black Omega
First Post
weiknarf said:
Some pretty interesting comments here. Very easy to see how frustrating that could be. It might explain alot of why Salvatore's villains are usually in much the same bumbling baddie mode.
Why the hatred towards FRCS?
- Thread starter Dark Jezter
- Start date
Some pretty interesting comments here. Very easy to see how frustrating that could be. It might explain alot of why Salvatore's villains are usually in much the same bumbling baddie mode.
Arcane Runes Press
First Post
Greenwood addresses this issue here:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquar...6/ed-novels.htm
This reads like an ego driven excuse fest. Blah, Blah Blah. He can write like Wodehouse and Lord Dunesay. He wants to write like Guy Gavriel Kay. He wanted to give the world subtle, plot driven brilliance, but THE MAN HELD HIM DOWN!!!!!!! Damn TSR and their eyes!!!!
Whatever
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquar...6/ed-novels.htm
This reads like an ego driven excuse fest. Blah, Blah Blah. He can write like Wodehouse and Lord Dunesay. He wants to write like Guy Gavriel Kay. He wanted to give the world subtle, plot driven brilliance, but THE MAN HELD HIM DOWN!!!!!!! Damn TSR and their eyes!!!!
Whatever
Zhure
First Post
I don't feel I'm adding anything unmentioned, but my distaste falls into a few simple categories (I believe 'hate' is too strong a word):
- Godlike NPC's with few restrictions on their powers. It's like playing Robin in a campaign where Superman is flitting about. The only way to be believeably effective is if Supes is occasionally beset by Kryptonite. Elminster doesn't really have a Kryptonite, and if he did, it'd be odd for it to show up every adventure.
The alternate to this is there is too much going on in the Realms to be handled by the uber-NPC's. That begins to stretch the bounds of plausibility. I'm not saying it's impossible to have fun, plausible games set in the Realms, I just find it too stifling.
- The geography is too well-explored. In the original setting, Thay was supposed to be a null zone, where then T$R wouldn't do any development, giving local DM's a chance to place odd events and situations.
That quickly went by the wayside. Now there's little unexplored in the Realms and little room for sweeping plots and storylines that don't involve high-level NPC's.
- Too much common knowledge. On the one hand, it's delightful that there's a completely understood pantheon of heroes and villains running about, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense for every PC to be familiar with every major NPC in the setting. While it's true that players should mentally separate what they know vs. what their characters know, that sort of cognitive dissonance is difficult to do on a consistent basis. It's a lot easier in a home-brew campaign where everything is new and different.
- The Realms are such a mish-mash of cultures, it's hard to get a handle on what makes a Thayan different from a Dale lander. Aside from the obvious differences, what are the cultural differences? Or better yet, a Simbian vs a Corymyrian? Contrast this to Greyhawk, where there are reams of notes on geography. ecology and politics
Those are my quibbles. Individually, they don't mean a lot. Taken altogether, they annoy me to the point I don't like running or playing a FR campaign.
Greg
edit- oh yeah, and Elminster's a perv. I don't like combining my soft porn and my gaming.
- Godlike NPC's with few restrictions on their powers. It's like playing Robin in a campaign where Superman is flitting about. The only way to be believeably effective is if Supes is occasionally beset by Kryptonite. Elminster doesn't really have a Kryptonite, and if he did, it'd be odd for it to show up every adventure.
The alternate to this is there is too much going on in the Realms to be handled by the uber-NPC's. That begins to stretch the bounds of plausibility. I'm not saying it's impossible to have fun, plausible games set in the Realms, I just find it too stifling.
- The geography is too well-explored. In the original setting, Thay was supposed to be a null zone, where then T$R wouldn't do any development, giving local DM's a chance to place odd events and situations.
That quickly went by the wayside. Now there's little unexplored in the Realms and little room for sweeping plots and storylines that don't involve high-level NPC's.
- Too much common knowledge. On the one hand, it's delightful that there's a completely understood pantheon of heroes and villains running about, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense for every PC to be familiar with every major NPC in the setting. While it's true that players should mentally separate what they know vs. what their characters know, that sort of cognitive dissonance is difficult to do on a consistent basis. It's a lot easier in a home-brew campaign where everything is new and different.
- The Realms are such a mish-mash of cultures, it's hard to get a handle on what makes a Thayan different from a Dale lander. Aside from the obvious differences, what are the cultural differences? Or better yet, a Simbian vs a Corymyrian? Contrast this to Greyhawk, where there are reams of notes on geography. ecology and politics
Those are my quibbles. Individually, they don't mean a lot. Taken altogether, they annoy me to the point I don't like running or playing a FR campaign.
Greg
edit- oh yeah, and Elminster's a perv. I don't like combining my soft porn and my gaming.
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Zarrock God of Evil
First Post
Zhure said:
There's plenty of info on what makes Sembians different from Cormyreans (and anyone else) in the FRCS - and you can look up plenty of old sources for more info. The regional supplements will cover this in even greater detail.
Elminster's a perv? What did you eat?
-Zarrock
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Numion
First Post
Arcane Runes Press said:Greenwood addresses this issue here:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquar...6/ed-novels.htm
This reads like an ego driven excuse fest. Blah, Blah Blah. He can write like Wodehouse and Lord Dunesay. He wants to write like Guy Gavriel Kay. He wanted to give the world subtle, plot driven brilliance, but THE MAN HELD HIM DOWN!!!!!!! Damn TSR and their eyes!!!!
Whatever
I know certain other AD&D oldtimer who also had a problem with 'his' campaign setting and T$R. Strangely enough he too wrote some fantasy books of.. uh.. questionable quality.
His claims were taken quite seriously, though.
Storm Raven
First Post
Numion said:I know certain other AD&D oldtimer who also had a problem with 'his' campaign setting and T$R. Strangely enough he too wrote some fantasy books of.. uh.. questionable quality.
If you are referring to who I think you are referring to, what is questionable about the quality of his fantasy books? There isn't anything questionable about them, they are unquestionably bad.
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
I'll rephrase my previous point once more to make it somewhat more clear.
It all boils down to "How much altering can you do while still gaming in the same world?". For some, disregarding the high level NPCs and their importance seems to do the trick. For others, this, as well as disregarding the new events introduced in the novels has to be done. For again some other people, part of the history of the world has to be rewritten.
Now, in my view, the FRCS requires too much altering for it to be still called FR, and for me to be happy DM'ing it. I know players however (not my current players BTW) who couldn't deal with that degree of altering, and still calling it the FR. They really liked lady Alustriel. They want to look up King Bruenor, etc. etc.
So, I'm not "attacking" your realms, I'm "attacking" the FR as printed. I do feel stifled by it. Too much alteration would take away too much of the distinctiveness of the setting, but in the same time, I could't deal with the world without those changes.
I think this should clear up my POV.
Rav
It all boils down to "How much altering can you do while still gaming in the same world?". For some, disregarding the high level NPCs and their importance seems to do the trick. For others, this, as well as disregarding the new events introduced in the novels has to be done. For again some other people, part of the history of the world has to be rewritten.
Now, in my view, the FRCS requires too much altering for it to be still called FR, and for me to be happy DM'ing it. I know players however (not my current players BTW) who couldn't deal with that degree of altering, and still calling it the FR. They really liked lady Alustriel. They want to look up King Bruenor, etc. etc.
So, I'm not "attacking" your realms, I'm "attacking" the FR as printed. I do feel stifled by it. Too much alteration would take away too much of the distinctiveness of the setting, but in the same time, I could't deal with the world without those changes.
I think this should clear up my POV.
Rav
Altalazar
First Post
I can sort of understand why some people might enjoy playing in such a well-known and defined world.
But for those who like to build their own adventures and heroes, it can feel quite stifling, and that could probably be said of ANY sort of world as well defined as FR - so perhaps it isn't really FR specific.
I think the only way to fix this would be to basically destroy the staus quo in some way in FR, and here's the kicker - DON'T ESTABLISH A NEW ONE - leave a massive vacuum. The harpers? Wiped out. All of them. Gone. Elminster? Dead. Drizzt? Dead. etc. Not because there is something wrong with them per-se, but as has been pointed out, with them around, the PCs can feel irrelevant. So keep the world, lose the NPCs, except the lower level ones, and go from there.
But for those who like to build their own adventures and heroes, it can feel quite stifling, and that could probably be said of ANY sort of world as well defined as FR - so perhaps it isn't really FR specific.
I think the only way to fix this would be to basically destroy the staus quo in some way in FR, and here's the kicker - DON'T ESTABLISH A NEW ONE - leave a massive vacuum. The harpers? Wiped out. All of them. Gone. Elminster? Dead. Drizzt? Dead. etc. Not because there is something wrong with them per-se, but as has been pointed out, with them around, the PCs can feel irrelevant. So keep the world, lose the NPCs, except the lower level ones, and go from there.
Son_of_Thunder
Explorer
Whew! Everyone's a Critic
Greetings all!!!
It's been said on other threads that Greyhawkers and homebrewers bash the Realms while Realms goers don't reciprocate. I used to be a card carrying member of the ARF (Anti Realms Federation). I hated it for all the reasons given; A high level mage around every corner to make you nothing but a memory, every square inch of the Realms have been mapped, etc. etc. Then I finally had an epiphany, I grew up.
It's all in your style of play. You want high magic, huge continent and well detailed locales play the Realms. You want something new play in the Scarred Lands or Homebrew. I predict that the Scarred Lands will have it's detractors in droves in five or so years. You want an example of a good Realms campaign? Look in the Story Hour Forums for the 'Travels Through the Wild West: a Forgotten Realms Story Hour'. I assume that if the character do happen to meet the big E that it will be in a small, don't take the spotlight away from the main characters, way.
Many ask that if the world is in such a life threatening situation why wouldn't E or the 7 be there to save it? Well the Realms is a HUGE place. These uber characters aren't omnipresent. They have there own problems.
It's also been said that if you change the Realms to suit you that it will no longer be the Realms. I was a big Dragonlance fan until that 5th Age crap came along. Dragonlance was changed too much for me with the 5th Age. At first I was ticked, irate, horked off even. Then I came to realize that it's my game. Canon be danged, Chaos never forced the deities to leave and the Knights of Takhisis still control a major part of Ansalon. In short use what you want and ignore the rest. Even the gawd EGG says so, basically (not a direct quote).
So anywho, as long as you have fun, play the game.
Cheers,
Son of Thunder
P.S. I personally like Greyhawk. Greyhawk Rules Forever!!!!
Greetings all!!!
It's been said on other threads that Greyhawkers and homebrewers bash the Realms while Realms goers don't reciprocate. I used to be a card carrying member of the ARF (Anti Realms Federation). I hated it for all the reasons given; A high level mage around every corner to make you nothing but a memory, every square inch of the Realms have been mapped, etc. etc. Then I finally had an epiphany, I grew up.
It's all in your style of play. You want high magic, huge continent and well detailed locales play the Realms. You want something new play in the Scarred Lands or Homebrew. I predict that the Scarred Lands will have it's detractors in droves in five or so years. You want an example of a good Realms campaign? Look in the Story Hour Forums for the 'Travels Through the Wild West: a Forgotten Realms Story Hour'. I assume that if the character do happen to meet the big E that it will be in a small, don't take the spotlight away from the main characters, way.
Many ask that if the world is in such a life threatening situation why wouldn't E or the 7 be there to save it? Well the Realms is a HUGE place. These uber characters aren't omnipresent. They have there own problems.
It's also been said that if you change the Realms to suit you that it will no longer be the Realms. I was a big Dragonlance fan until that 5th Age crap came along. Dragonlance was changed too much for me with the 5th Age. At first I was ticked, irate, horked off even. Then I came to realize that it's my game. Canon be danged, Chaos never forced the deities to leave and the Knights of Takhisis still control a major part of Ansalon. In short use what you want and ignore the rest. Even the gawd EGG says so, basically (not a direct quote).
So anywho, as long as you have fun, play the game.
Cheers,
Son of Thunder
P.S. I personally like Greyhawk. Greyhawk Rules Forever!!!!
Doesn't anyone ever think about just adjusting the stats for the so-called "uber-NPCs"? What were the realms if Elminster were a level 17 wizard? He can still be the most famous mage in the dalelands, maybe even in the world. Who needs his stats anyway?
I don't care about NPC stats and levels as long as they don't take part in the campaign - and I only care about the stats that influence interaction with the PCs.
Feel like you live in the shadow of the NPCs? Adjust their stats and levels, if not their fame, and suddenly your PC is the main hero.
I don't care about NPC stats and levels as long as they don't take part in the campaign - and I only care about the stats that influence interaction with the PCs.
Feel like you live in the shadow of the NPCs? Adjust their stats and levels, if not their fame, and suddenly your PC is the main hero.
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