Why the hatred towards FRCS?

[Arcane Runes Press]

It's been said on other threads that Greyhawkers and homebrewers bash the Realms while Realms goers don't reciprocate. I used to be a card carrying member of the ARF (Anti Realms Federation). I hated it for all the reasons given; A high level mage around every corner to make you nothing but a memory, every square inch of the Realms have been mapped, etc. etc. Then I finally had an epiphany, I grew up.

First, it may have been said, but it's not true. You can find LOTS of anti-Greyhawk talk from FR players. That's what happens when people have different tastes.

Second, if you want to say you "grew up", fine, but don't expect that people who dislike (or hate) the realms haven't yet. Tastes differ and much of what gets said on message boards has to be taken with a grain of salt, since it's such an impersonal, imperfect means of communication. Chances are good that many people, both supporters and detractors of the Realms, would lose much of their vehemence if they were speaking face to face.

For myself, I don't hate, or even dislike, the Realms as a campaign setting. I DO think certain aspects of it are inexcusably silly. I certainly don't need to be told that I can change the Realms or ignore NPCs if I want, duh, I know. The fact that I can ignore something doesn't invalidate my right to find it distasteful or silly.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

I'll rephrase my previous point once more to make it somewhat more clear.

It all boils down to "How much altering can you do while still gaming in the same world?". For some, disregarding the high level NPCs and their importance seems to do the trick. For others, this, as well as disregarding the new events introduced in the novels has to be done. For again some other people, part of the history of the world has to be rewritten.

Now, in my view, the FRCS requires too much altering for it to be still called FR, and for me to be happy DM'ing it. I know players however (not my current players BTW) who couldn't deal with that degree of altering, and still calling it the FR. They really liked lady Alustriel. They want to look up King Bruenor, etc. etc.

So, I'm not "attacking" your realms, I'm "attacking" the FR as printed. I do feel stifled by it. Too much alteration would take away too much of the distinctiveness of the setting, but in the same time, I could't deal with the world without those changes.

I think this should clear up my POV.

Rav

If you dislike the Realms so much, why are you so hung up in calling it FR? Is it so necessary to keep the brand that is Forgotten Realms that you don't dare altering it so drastically as to fit your own needs? Why?
If you want the realms, although has some major points which needs to be changed, why is it such a problem to do such a thing?
"My changes would be so drastic; I could just as well create a homebrew", some might object. I strive to see how even MAJOR alterations (except for the "Okay, I must annihilate the northern realms, completely remodel all geography and add a continent in the west" way of altering) could render all that glorious detail and info useless.
How about creating a homebrew from the outside, instead of the inside, altering and adding instead of creating. Just look at Zarrocks Dark Realms (www.zarrock.dk, IIRC), and how he is changing the realms to better suit him, creating a very different flavor, but still keeping the realms "brand".

Oops gotta go..

 

[Ravellion]

"My changes would be so drastic; I could just as well create a homebrew", some might object. I strive to see how even MAJOR alterations (except for the "Okay, I must annihilate the northern realms, completely remodel all geography and add a continent in the west" way of altering) could render all that glorious detail and info useless.

That pretty much sums it up, yeah.

How about creating a homebrew from the outside, instead of the inside, altering and adding instead of creating. Just look at Zarrocks Dark Realms (www.zarrock.dk, IIRC), and how he is changing the realms to better suit him, creating a very different flavor, but still keeping the realms "brand".

Oops gotta go..

I can do outside-->inside creation with my own world too. Think up my own pantheon, my own geography, my own NPC's. Takes about 1.5x the time it would take in comparison to altering the realms I guess... but then it's 100% mine. I can fidget with it more than most players would ever accept from a published campaign world.

Rav

 

[Henry]

Well, one thing's for sure: Dark Jezter got what he was looking for out of this thread. Even with a little bit of vitriol here and there, everyone had well-reasoned, reserved thoughts and responses. It makes me proud of the signal-to-noise ratio on this board.

Oh, and one thing: one final comment, from Ed of the Green Wood himself:

For those who mutter that there's too much magic in the Realms, my answer is: tough. I designed the Realms to be very magic-abundant, and TSR wanted to keep it that way to differentiate it from Greyhawk and Dragonlance, at the time of its release. None of these perceived power problems arise as problems in play at all if you're running a ROLE-playing first and foremost campaign (which my home campaign is, and has always been). If you don't like this or that spell, don't use it. If certain characters give you a pain, don't use them. Someone else who plays, and is short of time or creative juices some night WILL use them, and be glad they snuck into print.

That works pretty well for me. Bye, all.

 

[SurfMonkey01]

Having cake and eating it too

You know, I've watched this debate go back and forth for like forever now... and what it boils down to is this: in my personal opinion, the Realms book is, bar none, the best bang for your d20 buck at this time. Yes, the book is insanely detailed, and that's why I love it. If you like something, use it. If you don't, then don't. It's as simple as that. One of the first rules of running a game is "if you don't like a rule, change it." Every rpg rulebook I've ever read has said that somewhere. As far as I'm concerned, that applies to worlds and settings too.
The other big thing I've seen going around is the complaints about the uber-NPCs and even the general magic level of the world. Well, I think the high magic content in the world is great... I'm a big fan of magic in a game, and FR has it in spades. As for the NPCs... if you don't like them, don't use them. Write them out, kill them off, hell, just forget they ever existed. In my campaign I'm currently running, I'm going to be doing a ton of things to the Chosen that would never be allowed in "canon." But you know what, I don't care! Does that mean I hate the setting? No! It just means that I don't care for certain NPCs, and I'm dealing with them my way.
No matter what someone may think, it is far from impossible to accomplish things in the Realms. And yes, even low-level PCs can feel like heroes in world with Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest. All it takes is some creativity and a good DM, and anything's possible. If you don't believe me, go to the link below and read the story for my campaign, then come back and tell me that you can't do anything new or exciting with the Realms.

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?threadid=1208

 

[Galfridus]

Re: Having cake and eating it too

You know, I've watched this debate go back and forth for like forever now... and what it boils down to is this: in my personal opinion, the Realms book is, bar none, the best bang for your d20 buck at this time. Yes, the book is insanely detailed, and that's why I love it. If you like something, use it. If you don't, then don't. It's as simple as that. One of the first rules of running a game is "if you don't like a rule, change it." Every rpg rulebook I've ever read has said that somewhere. As far as I'm concerned, that applies to worlds and settings too.

I have to agree with this; the Realms book packs an incredible amount of stuff into a single volume.

The problem with "if you don't like it, change it" and the Realms is that if you change the Realms too much, you take away the familiarity that the players have. I would hate to be playing in something I thought was the Realms only to find out I had made some critical, fatal assumption about how things worked.

But that's irrelevant to me: all I took from the Realms book was their format for writing up nations, regions, and deities for my homegrown world. That alone has been a great help!

The other big thing I've seen going around is the complaints about the uber-NPCs and even the general magic level of the world. Well, I think the high magic content in the world is great... I'm a big fan of magic in a game, and FR has it in spades.

I think my biggest frustation with this aspect of the Realms is the spillover effect it has. Players jump at increased magic, and get caught up in a cross-world arms race. Players want to use cool stuff, no matter what world it comes from. Sure, as DM I can turn it down, but I get sick of turning it down constantly. And with 3E there has been actual rules escalation: the "+2 to 2 skills" feats. When they first came out, the stock answer was: "They're Realms regional feats, that keeps them balanced against Skill Focus." Now you see them in the 3E splatbooks as standard rules items. Gr.

As for the NPCs: it's a well-known standard of DMing that you don't upstage the PCs with uber-NPCs. The Realms is an incredibly public world, and Elminster (and later Drizzt) is its spokesperson. Most of what I know about the Realms I read in Elminster's voice. It seems very self-indulgent to give such a character incredible power -- especially when he seems so blase about using it. It's a use of power where skill and effort would have been so much better.

No matter what someone may think, it is far from impossible to accomplish things in the Realms. And yes, even low-level PCs can feel like heroes in world with Elminster, Drizzt, and the rest. All it takes is some creativity and a good DM, and anything's possible. If you don't believe me, go to the link below and read the story for my campaign, then come back and tell me that you can't do anything new or exciting with the Realms.

I don't doubt this for a minute -- in fact, I wouldn't hesitate if my DM wanted to run a game in the Realms (though I might make a few wisecracks). A good DM can overcome anything. It's just not something that I would want to take on as DM.