Why the hatred towards FRCS?

[BiggusGeekus]

Renshai said:

You see, there is the problem inherent in your argument. Realism.This is fantasy, and the cultures of the Realms ( a fantasy setting ) were created and came into being because of fantasical reason.

But I keep hearing that explaination for everything.

Why is the Realms geography the way it is?

It's fantasy!

Why do the weather patterns and currents make no sense?

It's fantasy!

Why are there so many varient cultures jammed together with wildly divergent technological and societal development levels?

It's fantasy!

Why does gunpowder work in parts of the Realms timeline and not in other parts?

It's fantasy!

How about steam power? The Realms has had steel and good metalurgical/manufacturing skills for, what, a thousand years now?(*)

It's fantasy!

Canals. Why aren't there canals? They speed up transport and would be easy for the average Realms country to dig.

It's fantasy!

Over and over and over and over. Again, I realize that most people don't care about this kind of stuff. I realize that people are having fun and that's all that matters. However, some for others there are only so many times we can suspend our disbelief.

Of course by now, I am probably beating the proverbial dead horse.

Biggus Geekus

(*) I am guessing here. My knoweldge of the Realms can be shakey. But I'm pretty sure they've had steel and the ability for steam power (and things like railroads and early factories) for quite some time now. Again, the happy Realms-ian is free to ignore this if they are having fun in their game.

 

[Ravellion]

Stopping at 20 (or 18) makes no sense. That is unless the player decides to retire at that point. I always thought it was silly that Dragonlance made you stop at that level. Does your character simply stop learning? Does he never pick up a new skill? There is no reason someone of that caliber would end their pursuit of power.

Have you ever played in Dragonlance, or did you just look at the limit and thought that it was arbitrary? A PC of that level could create quite a powerbase if he wanted to. In fact, skip "quite". He could flat out be the ruler of all things he was related to. The Highest Knight, The most powerful Red Robe, The head of the church of Paladine... one step below godhood... at 18th level... just depends where you put the limit really.

So, if, at 20th level, you are the best Archer in the world (since there are no epic level rules), is it really required to become the God of Archery?! Why isn't "best archer in the world" good enough?

What's next...? well, in my view, nothing. How many PC's actually make it to 20th level? Only in the FR, a 20th level wizard still means diddly squat. There are probably a couple of hundred of them, judging by the amount of 25+ wizards there are. IMCs, a 20th level PC is special. Running FR as is, would leave my PC's with that nagging notion that you would have to go on playing just to leave your stamp on the world.

Besides, perhaps in certain fields, it is truly possible to have learned all you can. Perhaps the mind is not built for more powerful arcane energies. No mortal being can channel greater divine energies without succumbing in the process, etc. etc.

Yawn... Post 100, and I'm off to bed... 3:49 AM local time...

Rav

 

[Renshai]

Have you ever played in Dragonlance, or did you just look at the limit and thought that it was arbitrary? A PC of that level could create quite a powerbase if he wanted to. In fact, skip "quite". He could flat out be the ruler of all things he was related to. The Highest Knight, The most powerful Red Robe, The head of the church of Paladine... one step below godhood... at 18th level... just depends where you put the limit really.

No, I played it, albeit for a short time. Wasn’t to my taste. A character at any level can build a powerbase if he roleplays well. I’m talking about game mechanics to handle the things that are truly epic. I can understand someone wanting to stop that game at a certain point. But not everyone wants to. There are some people that wonder what the truly Epic Characters are like. People want some way to quantify that. The fact that a way will be provided will take away the half-hazard way characters of this type are handled.

So, if, at 20th level, you are the best Archer in the world (since there are no epic level rules), is it really required to become the God of Archery?! Why isn't "best archer in the world" good enough?

If there are still stories to be told, then why shouldn’t he strive to be an even better archer. His days of hunting orcs and even dragons might be over, but perhaps it is time to hunt demon lords and quasi-deities. For people that want to tell and take part in stories of this sort the Epic Level Rules will be a boon. Stories are not always finished being told when the last orc dies.

The Epic Characters of the Forgotten Realms fit into the category of persona that did go on. Through their own (and divine) motivation, they have moved forward to the realms of legends.

What's next...? well, in my view, nothing. How many PC's actually make it to 20th level? Only in the FR, a 20th level wizard still means diddly squat. There are probably a couple of hundred of them, judging by the amount of 25+ wizards there are. IMCs, a 20th level PC is special. Running FR as is, would leave my PC's with that nagging notion that you would have to go on playing just to leave your stamp on the world.

If that is really a problem? If your players really brood over that fact that Elminster is CR 40 and that this causes them to somehow be ineffectual, then the problem lies with the DM. I wonder why my players never feel like their aren’t leaving their stamp? The village of Hommlet (set in the Realms for my campaign) thinks them heroes, and treats them as such. If Elminster were to waltz into town, I imagine the reaction would be, “What has he done for us? Move along ol chap.”

Leaving your stamp on a campaign world has nothing to do with level. The high level characters of the campaign are simply plot devices to be used or not to be used. Not using them as central plot hooks does not make your campaign any Realmsian in flavor. The high level characters only matter if the Dungeon Master lets them.

Ren

 

[Henry@home]

Renshai said:

By the way, Mordenkainen has Epic Levels as well… so would Phillidor (sp?). Vecna and Kas would be considered to have Epic Levels before their disappearance. Powerful NPCs did not originate in the Realms, and rules for Epic Level Characters are not being created because the Realms has high level NPCs, they are being created because there is a demand for them.

I do have to point out the interesting fact that the very first treatment of Epic levels in a published WotC product was in the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting - In fact, I would go so far as to say that Epic Power levels are a defining characteristic of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. In my opinion, In that list are:

• Epic power levels for numerous NPC's - one cannot think of Elminster, the other Chosen, etc. without using the concept of levels of power above the core rulebooks.
• Extensive history of powerful magi and their Machiavellian Plans - the number of secret wizard schemes, magical wizard hidey-holes, devestations and salvations cause by behind-the-scenes wizards, etc. give one the impression that wizards have influenced more of Faerun's history that all the gods combined.
• Intrinsically Detailed Regional and Character information - one can find something written, from a paragraph to an entire guidebook, about every major culture on the map.
• Entrenchment of the key players in culture & society - Elminster, the Chosen, Larloch, etc. have been making plans and active in the realms for 1000 years or more, longer than most of the other NPC's, and the characters that players play, have been alive. To the common man, these forces have been there, have ALWAYS been there, and will continue to be there long after their grandchildren die.

These are not necessarily bad things - they are items that specifically define the setting, for good or ill. Many like these features, and many dislike the Realms because of these same features.

As I stated before, I enjoy the Realms, and they have influenced my home campaign tremendously. But one thing that I changed for my home campaigns is the sheer number of epic-level NPC's involved, and their range of longevity.

Anecdotally, I have 2 epic-level NPC wizards in my home campaign, who I bowed out no long before we wrapped up the last campaign. The two NPC's were lovers, one was "Elminster-like", and due to imprisonment (LONG before the "Elminster in Hell" came out), he had been affected with a rare magical wasting disease, that gradually removed his spellcasting ability. He went into seclusion to find a cure, along with the help of his significant other, leaving the PC's to become the "New World Champions." I think they were a little afraid of the responsibility, because we wrapped up the campaign not long after.

It is up to the individual DM to adjust the NPC's and power levels of his campaign as he sees fit - I can't stress this enough. But Some just do not like the Realms, because in order to remain true to the setting, they would have to alter some of the most defining aspects of the campaign in order to make it "theirs." If you are going to establish that much unfamiliarity into a campaign, then it is someone's home-brew campaign with the 'Realms place names attached.

 

[Henry@home]

If any of you have read the new Troy Denning Books (Archwizard trilogy), then you would know that most of the Chosen of Mystra have either dissapeared or have gone into hiding.

Also, I made the Dark magic Mythal which surrounds Everska impermeable by people who arent touched by the shadow weave, effectively trapping Khelben and Laeral inside.

Elminster is in Hell. He will not be coming back any time soon.

Vangerdahast is too busy handling the "invasion" of Tilverton to care about what is happening in the north.

All in all, most of the major players are tied up in other things, leaving the seemingly unimportant (yet world shaking) events to the party. All this serves as a backdrop for an epic adventure, and it doesn't destroy the flavor of the realms.

If all these changes are true, then I am glad that WotC is doing them. However, IMO they DO make significant flavor changes to the 'Realms. Just the fact that these worthies are not available or are "gone" change the entire power-base of Faerun. It's kind of the effect you would get if all of the police in a town were to have suddenly vanished. The Villainous Mice will begin to play, and it's up to the PC cats to do something about this mess, or "go into hiding" themselves...

Those are the kinds of things I like to see for some epic adventuring.

However, didn't Elminster come back from hell rather soon after he left in that novel of the same name?

And as for Vangerdahast - was that just for your campaign, or is this in some of the "latest news"?

 

[Renshai]

Henry wrote:

I do have to point out the interesting fact that the very first treatment of Epic levels in a published WotC product was in the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting - In fact, I would go so far as to say that Epic Power levels are a defining characteristic of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. In my opinion, In that list are:

Indeed, they were the first setting in print to get this treatment, but the Epic Level Rules were already in development. As we saw from handouts during GenCon 2000. Also remember, Mordenakinen was listed as being 20+ in the Living Greyhawk RPGA Book. The rules were also in development because of the new Deities and Demigods, as much as the FRCS. Since the days of the old Basic Rules when characters were striving for 36th level and then Godhood, people have been wanting to play truly epic level characters.

These are not necessarily bad things - they are items that specifically define the setting, for good or ill. Many like these features, and many dislike the Realms because of these same features.

You see, I disagree. Those things do not drive the plot of campaigns I run in the Forgotten Realms, nor do they have to drive the plots of another DM’s campaign. Now I’m not talking about getting rid of all the Chosen or Elminster, but rather treating them as a non-issue. Their history’s and plans only drive your campaign and define it if you allow it to. In the middle of the Western Heartlands, in a campaign where the PCs are waging a way against the growing Gnoll Tribes they don’t make a bit of difference. ( an example of a previous campaign). I think many people “think” that the things you mentioned above define the setting and therefore think that if they can’t run a campaign which doesn’t utilize Elminster/Chosen in some way, their game won’t “feel like the Realms”. I look back over more than ten years of gaming there, and how little any of the so called Movers and Shakers have affected my campaign.

It is up to the individual DM to adjust the NPC's and power levels of his campaign as he sees fit - I can't stress this enough. But Some just do not like the Realms, because in order to remain true to the setting, they would have to alter some of the most defining aspects of the campaign in order to make it "theirs." If you are going to establish that much unfamiliarity into a campaign, then it is someone's home-brew campaign with the 'Realms place names attached.

Very true, but really… When you are sitting down to write our your own FR campaign or just run an adventure, the Epic Level Characters should never cross your mind, if they do then you are focusing too much on what they might do and not what your player characters might do.



Ren

 

[d20Gurus.com]

If all these changes are true, then I am glad that WotC is doing them. However, IMO they DO make significant flavor changes to the 'Realms. Just the fact that these worthies are not available or are "gone" change the entire power-base of Faerun. It's kind of the effect you would get if all of the police in a town were to have suddenly vanished. The Villainous Mice will begin to play, and it's up to the PC cats to do something about this mess, or "go into hiding" themselves...

Those are the kinds of things I like to see for some epic adventuring.

However, didn't Elminster come back from hell rather soon after he left in that novel of the same name?

And as for Vangerdahast - was that just for your campaign, or is this in some of the "latest news"?

Well, a few things....

Elminster does find his way out of hell, but that hasn't happened in my timeline yet. He's in hell, simple as that... I like the character, but him being thwacked by the shade enclave does put some dark overtones into the setting.

Khelben and Laeral are fine in the real timeline, but I trapped them in Evreska for my own benefit.

Most of the chosen of Mystra are missing or no longer on Toril at the moment.

That weird statement about tilverton in the FR handbook is finally explained in The Seige, by Troy Denning. Cormyr is in alot of trouble with the Shade Enclave right now, and Tilverton fell into darkness because of it.


I reallly like the dark overtones they are infusing into the setting. It makes it feel alot more tense than a Realms game usually does. I even had my party travel with Khelben and the Moonstars to Evreska, only to have them watch Khelben get trapped, and 1/2 the Moonstars get killed during the battle.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

My two copper pieces...

How I keep Big E and friends from interfering with world-changing plotline:

The evil forces aren't stupid, they spend incredible resources on assaulting the power-buckets, while the PCs may act freely because they aren't seen as any threat (yet).

Alustriel and Elminster won't have much time to solve a plot when whole armies set out to obliterate them and no other! Also, the big bad guys would also be tied up in conflicts with their opposites (the good guys), and hardly would pay much attention to the characters (unless thats the point! Because if it is the DM will make it so)


Blah...

 

[Henry]

Renshai said:

Indeed, they were the first setting in print to get this treatment, but the Epic Level Rules were already in development. As we saw from handouts during GenCon 2000. Also remember, Mordenakinen was listed as being 20+ in the Living Greyhawk RPGA Book. The rules were also in development because of the new Deities and Demigods, as much as the FRCS. Since the days of the old Basic Rules when characters were striving for 36th level and then Godhood, people have been wanting to play truly epic level characters.

However, and my list is the only reason I point this out, The FRCS included a draft of those rules BEFORE they were even finished, BECAUSE decribing the main NPC's of the 'Realms was impossible without them. My point was rather that Epic levels are intrinsic to the setting, because so many characters there are above the Core range. Using Greyhawk and Dragonlance as an example, the PCs in those settings can be well-defined by using 20th level as a cap - even Mordenkainen, who has never shown any hint of power other than the abilities given in whatever edition he was printed under.

You see, I disagree. Those things do not drive the plot of campaigns I run in the Forgotten Realms, nor do they have to drive the plots of another DM’s campaign. Now I’m not talking about getting rid of all the Chosen or Elminster, but rather treating them as a non-issue. Their history’s and plans only drive your campaign and define it if you allow it to. In the middle of the Western Heartlands, in a campaign where the PCs are waging a way against the growing Gnoll Tribes they don’t make a bit of difference. ( an example of a previous campaign). I think many people “think” that the things you mentioned above define the setting and therefore think that if they can’t run a campaign which doesn’t utilize Elminster/Chosen in some way, their game won’t “feel like the Realms”. I look back over more than ten years of gaming there, and how little any of the so called Movers and Shakers have affected my campaign.

These things do not drive plots, but they ARE defining characteristics, because to outright say that you are removing them from the game or changing them takes away any difference between, say, the 'Realms and Greyhawk, or the 'Realms and Krynn. You can certainly downplay them for the sake of a campaign, but a cursory description of the Forgotten Realms always seems to include these elements, even from press distribution from TSR, and then WotC.

Very true, but really… When you are sitting down to write our your own FR campaign or just run an adventure, the Epic Level Characters should never cross your mind, if they do then you are focusing too much on what they might do and not what your player characters might do.

I disagree with this, and here's why: If I am planning an epic campaign where Thay is going to war with Aglarond, and the PC's will be 17th to 20th level Aglarondans at the time I plan this, how are Elminster and the Simbul, if not half a million 15th + level Harpers and friends NOT going to be included in the plans? The PC's might be natural candidates for generalships and such, but the party mage is going to be "the Simbul's and Elminster's Assistant."

Alternately, if you want to run the return of the Shades from Netheril, the others are GOING to be involved. On an even lesser scale, if Orcs are about to overrun Silverymoon, you KNOW that Alustriel, Drizzt, some of the more competent warriors of Mithril Hall, and the leader of Silverymoon herself are going to step in. At no time would it make sense to "let Silverymoon fall if the PC's flub up", unless those worthies were physically incapable of doing so- say, being in Hell at the time.

For anything less than the invasion of a large city, it makes sense for the Major NPC's to not show their heads. Anything more epic than this, and having an NPC with an interest in the area NOT show up stretches the bounds of believability - unless you want to start a plot about the corruption of that particular NPC.

(Now THERE's a plot - Elminster has been seduced by, say, Bane, and has started to use his powers to aid the Church of Bane in overrunning the Dalelands. It's up to the PC's to redeem him - or take him out. )

 

[Chairman_Kaga]

In my campaign, Elminster has vanished and Shadowdale has been sacked. I am waiting for the PC's to finally say something like "WAIT! Shadowdale was sacked?! We have to go check that out..."

Then they'll discover that the Big E has been driven irrevocably mad by an artifact; an artifact that they have in their possession right now, alhough they don't know it yet.

How can this happen you may ask? Easy, in my FR, Elminster is no more than what he started out as, a sage who happens to be an archmage...none of this Chosen nonsense, or shacking up with a goddess tripe.