Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players

...as to the original intent of the OP- I have a son turning 11 at the end of the month- I have attempted several times to spark an interest in D&D in previous years using the 4E basic kit (the original one) as well as the 3.5 version, and the only moderately successful time was when I gave him the Mentzer players book (Frank's original hand erratta'ed copy, no less!). He's on occasion pulled the book out to read. I am hoping being slightly older and 4E red box which he will receive this sunday, which will generate some interest.

If you are having trouble getting interested in D&D and feel the rules are too much its not suprising to me your son would reflect this ambivelance. I have four children, 10-14, and all four are chomping at the bit to play whenever possible. They cut their teeth on 3.0 and are now all playing Pathfinder.

EDIt: Which is to say, the best way to interest your son is for you to play the game with him, using the ruleset you enjoy the most and talk the most positively about. This post was not meant to be a dig and rereading it, I realize my brevity might have been read that way.
 
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I'd say that's exactly the complaint. Is this a known limitation in the rules, or a design feature?

It's not a design feature, so if the only other option is 'limitation in the rules' then I'd go with that one.

If you go back and read the first few years of Dragon, you'll see this issue coming up all the time. I might as well go and explain why.

In the early days of the game, falling was treated primarily as a trap because that's the context it primarily came up in. The problem was, there was no rules for traps. There weren't even rules for traps in the 1e DMG. No one seemed to think you needed rules, and so traps were ad hoc'd by different designers and DMs to all sorts of different standards. The same was true for falling. Early on, you'll find 10' and 30' falls even in published modules having all sorts of different mechanics. Gradually though, things started to get standardized around the idea of 1d6 damage per 10' of fall.

For low levels of play, this works pretty well and makes sense both from gamist and simulationist viewpoints. Although it may be hard to remember it now, a d6 of damage at one time was quite lethal to first level characters, and if more lethality was desired deeper pits could always be used. There was a casual realism to d6/10' damage through the first few levels of the game.

But falling is very different than getting hit by battleaxes in D&D in one very important point. Hit points in D&D are abstract, and so attacks in D&D are likewise abstract. When a character is hit for d8 damage from a battleaxe, we don't know what has happened until after we inspect the remaining hit points. That is to say, if the character has 40 hit points and takes d8 damage from a battle axe, we know that he took only a shallow superficial wound, whereas when a character with 4 hit points taking d8 damage we know that they took 'a battle axe to the face'. But falling doesn't work exactly like this because we know (more or less, and here is the source of the argument) ahead of time before we roll for damage what has happened. So in the case of the attack and the fall we are using the mechanics for different purposes. In the case of the attack we use the mechanics to find out what happened, but in the case of the fall we know what happened and we use the mechanics to simulate it.

I don't want to get into the various approaches that have been used to fix this except to say that they are very common and each address more strongly a different percieved shortcoming in the rules. All though make falling more lethal and all basically have in mind that a hero ought to usually survive a fall but should generally fear a fall nonetheless.

No sane person is going to charge enemies with a rocket launcher across an open field. D&D characters charge enemies with fireballs all the time, knowing that the damage is going to be inconsiderable.

Leaving aside that if you aren't in a vehicle, charging a hostile guy with a rocket launcher is probably a lot saner than standing still, I don't agree that the two situations are neatly comparable. And, more importantly, this statement indicates to me that you haven't really considered how fireballs are (potentially) different than falling. (Hint: A fireball is a kind of an attack.)

I wouldn't jump off a ten feet wall; should my character be equally terrified of doing so? If no, then how tall should the wall be?

I think terrified is the wrong word. I think you would jump off a ten foot wall if you had a good reason to do so. Likewise, heroes aren't terrified and don't balk at doing dangerous things when the time comes, but I think they should still respect a fall as something not to be desired. And, I think players should play the game that way regardless of what the rules are.

There are all sorts of complaints where DMs and players had different expectations; one of the repeated ones on the board is a bridge across lava. If you kill my character because I should have known that running across a bridge five feet above lava would be fatal, or kill my character because he stood and fought instead of run across a bridge that was obviously perfectly safe, I'm going to be annoyed, and rightfully so in my opinion.

Yes, but not necessarily for the reason you think. You are IMO looking at the problem wrong. You think that the failure is the DM failing to communicate the meta-information - how many dice of damage are dealt for being within 5' of lava. The problem isn't that at all. The problem is the DM failing to communicate the in game information. If running across a bridge 5' above lava is lethal because of the heat of the air, then long before I reach the point where I suffer lethal heat, I should first feel a blast of heat like that from an newly open oven, and after that a scorching heat that dries my skin and eyes and causes great pain and discomfort. Only after that should my hair and clothes (and body!) spontaneously combust. But in the case of the DM who has you die for charging across a bridge, you apparantly recieved no information between going from an area that was cool and an area that was lethally hot. That is the poor DMing, and not that the DM didn't tell you how many dice of damage you would take by going over the bridge.

In the real world, many people - having watched too much Hollywood - don't know that it is lethal to be within 5' of large body of glowing hot lava. So its reasonable that your characters dont' have the exact mechanical knowledge either. What is unreasonable is that they can't recieve in game knowledge. Whether you had Hollywood understanding of lava or not, you'd soon get a real understanding of it were you in the real world and near to it.

There's problems, both big and small. You want to make a monk that can fall/float down a wall safely. Is this going to be a useful ability in game? What about a kit that reduces damage to 1d4 per 10', max. 20d4? Is that close enough? Should your first-level ranger in D&D 3.x pick Dragons as a favored enemy? The fact that dragons are a rare enemy for a party of less than fifth level is not chargen knowledge, but a player who doesn't know that and picks dragons as a favored enemy at first level is going to be less happy then one who made a good choice.

All of these to me betray a mindset that is far to concerned with the metagame than the game. And all of these problems are addressed by having a DM who, when working with a new player, advises the player of the benefits and potential drawbacks of the character concept that they imagine using plain language, for example:

"It's cool that you want to be a Dragon Hunter. I think it sounds like a great concept. I do want to warn you though that Dragons are a relatively rare enemy, and so you might not necessarily get to use that bonus very often and it might be some time before you meet a dragon."

Or...

"It's cool that you want to be a Dragon Hunter. I think Dragons might be a common opponent in this campaign, and while you might not get a huge benefit out of 'favored enemy: dragon' immediately, in the long run you won't regret the choice."

Or whatever is appropriate to the game. What's really important isn't the mechanics, but that the character has a cool concept like 'Dragon Hunter' and that the DM, if he's willing to approve it, is also willing to work with it. For my part, it would just remind me as a DM to make a special effort to include draconic challenges/encounters in my plans.
 
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Thanks Wicht, that clears alot up for me. I'd never heard of him before.

Still, it would be nice to see some of the figures that make encounters an undeniable success...


Be nice to know what evidence you have that it doesn't work? From an educational perspective it seems a 'no brainer'. Provide materials, a venue, a group, a scenario and a tutor and you get a tutorial. Not sure how this, i.e. Encounters, differs from what a GM does when they recruit at home?
 

In the early days of the game, falling was treated primarily as a trap ... Gradually though, things started to get standardized around the idea of 1d6 damage per 10' of fall.

For low levels of play, this works pretty well and makes sense both from gamist and simulationist viewpoints. Although it may be hard to remember it now, a d6 of damage at one time was quite lethal to first level characters, and if more lethality was desired deeper pits could always be used. There was a casual realism to d6/10' damage through the first few levels of the game.

But falling is very different than getting hit by battleaxes in D&D in one very important point. Hit points in D&D are abstract, and so attacks in D&D are likewise abstract.
SWSE's Wound-Vitality point system is the answer here.

Weapon/spell damage goes against Vitality points first, like normal. Falling damage and other similar pain goes half to Wound points, half to Vitality. (or all straight to Wound, if you're a true RBDM); you could in theory die and still have VP left!

Lan-"help! I'm standing and I can't fall down!"-efan
 

I'm a big non-fan of Vitality/Wound systems, especially that of Star Wars. (SWSE? You mean the edition that got *rid* of that system? ;))

You could get something of the same effect in 3e by taking damage directly to your constitution. Entertaining for the DM, if not the player, it must be said.

Cheers!
 

Be nice to know what evidence you have that it doesn't work? From an educational perspective it seems a 'no brainer'. Provide materials, a venue, a group, a scenario and a tutor and you get a tutorial. Not sure how this, i.e. Encounters, differs from what a GM does when they recruit at home?

Just anecdotal evidence. Most of the people I see playing encounters aren't young. That implies to me, that they probably aren't a new generation of players either.
Plus, I kind of think you need to have friends participating to really get into the game. Having friends that share a common interest with you, keeps everyone enthusiastic about the whole affair. IME, alot of the people in pickup groups at stores are throwbacks from more regular D&D groups. You know who I mean- the kind of guys that epitomize the most negative stereotypes of our beloved hobby. I'm sure plenty of awesome people play it too, but my experiences with such games were made very negative because of such players.
Also, the burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. An undeniable claim requires undeniable evidence.
 

SWSE's Wound-Vitality point system is the answer here.

Weapon/spell damage goes against Vitality points first, like normal. Falling damage and other similar pain goes half to Wound points, half to Vitality. (or all straight to Wound, if you're a true RBDM); you could in theory die and still have VP left!

Lan-"help! I'm standing and I can't fall down!"-efan

I'm aware of the WP/VP mechanic. It has its purposes, but it IMO tends to make the game less gameable. One of the reasons that HP's are the defacto standard mechanic not only in RPG's but in games generally is that they mitigate against bad luck. The tendency of WP/VP is to create a lot of random deaths, which may be realistic and appropriate for some settings/games, but does reduce gameability somewhat.

But let's not get side tracked into debates over mechanical design. I don't think a WP/VP mechanic would make D&D more attractive to novices, and none of the current incarnations make use of it.
 

Leaving aside that if you aren't in a vehicle, charging a hostile guy with a rocket launcher is probably a lot saner than standing still, I don't agree that the two situations are neatly comparable. And, more importantly, this statement indicates to me that you haven't really considered how fireballs are (potentially) different than falling. (Hint: A fireball is a kind of an attack.)

I don't care whether it's an attack or not. The rules are my interface to the world. If a small fireball and a 50' fall both do 5d6 points of damage, averaging 18 points, then my character knows that, even if not quantitatively. He probably is more familiar with the damage that a fall does than the damage a fireball does, given how often parties fall in pit traps. Taking pain and damage is all part of the job and if you want my character to fear falls, they need to be something to fear in game.

I don't buy the fireball is a kind of an attack thing. When a fireball goes off at the feet of someone in plate mail, they're encased in a ball of fire, no escape. It is a lot more plausible to me that someone could learn how to fall well--acrobats do it all the time--then someone encased in plate mail could learn to deal with a ball of fire in such a way that it would seriously reduce the amount of damage they take (and even negate the change of being killed.)

but I think they should still respect a fall as something not to be desired.

I think many do; damage is damage. But on the other hand, at higher levels, these are people who have died, repeatedly. In some cases, a little luck, maybe a touch of the gods (DM), was all that left anyone alive to keep them from being turned into undead lich toys. And that little light in their head that should have told them they had more than enough money and fame to retire and live the good life, free of poison gas, arrows, fireballs and, oh yeah, pit traps, it didn't turn on. For whatever reason, PCs no longer respect pain, injury and even death in the way that any reasonable person would.

And, I think players should play the game that way regardless of what the rules are.

I can't. If a 50' fall isn't going to seriously hurt my characters, and I know that, and my character knows that, it's going to be seriously frustrating to me to be told that I've act as if my character doesn't know what falls feel like.

You are IMO looking at the problem wrong. You think that the failure is the DM failing to communicate the meta-information - how many dice of damage are dealt for being within 5' of lava. The problem isn't that at all. The problem is the DM failing to communicate the in game information.

Okay. But when a character does decide that the lethal heat behind him is less scary then the multitenticalled stinging ooze demon in front of him, the mechanics need to match the description. My character has been through his share of fireballs and attacked his share of Fire subtype creatures; he knows the difference between a little singeing and real damage. And again, he's fighting a multitenticalled stinging ooze demon that could drive a dozen Call of Cthulhu characters insane by just looking at them; why should he be terrified of a little heat that he's faced before?

All of these to me betray a mindset that is far to concerned with the metagame than the game. And all of these problems are addressed by having a DM who, when working with a new player, advises the player of the benefits and potential drawbacks of the character concept that they imagine using plain language, for example:

"It's cool that you want to be a Dragon Hunter. I think it sounds like a great concept. I do want to warn you though that Dragons are a relatively rare enemy, and so you might not necessarily get to use that bonus very often and it might be some time before you meet a dragon."

Or...

"It's cool that you want to be a Dragon Hunter. I think Dragons might be a common opponent in this campaign, and while you might not get a huge benefit out of 'favored enemy: dragon' immediately, in the long run you won't regret the choice."

Or whatever is appropriate to the game. What's really important isn't the mechanics, but that the character has a cool concept like 'Dragon Hunter' and that the DM, if he's willing to approve it, is also willing to work with it. For my part, it would just remind me as a DM to make a special effort to include draconic challenges/encounters in my plans.

Playing a weak character sucks. I've played many characters with cool concepts that never worked out in play. So knowing these rules, knowing whether or not something will be useful in play, is key to how much I enjoy the game. I'd argue strongly against one of your suggestions; unless the DM really pushes it, taking Favored Enemy: Dragon, for 3.x ranger at first level means that you're going to get less time to shine and are more likely to feel like a redundant fifth wheel. And given the distance between the rules and the reality you encourage, I don't see why it matters what they write down on the sheet. Even in game, you can argue that wanting to be a dragon hunter doesn't mean you have the skills to be a dragon hunter.

If someone is willing to work with them, a new player doesn't need to know any rules. "You want to play a dragon hunter? Here's a dragon hunter. Oh, you don't know how to fill out the skills; let me do that for you." But if you want to play a really brave character you have to know the rules that tell you that Iron Will is the feat that will make your character less likely to fail Fear checks, and you'll have to consider the cost-benefits of taking Iron Will versus a feat that will make you more bad-ass in battle. Making a D&D character is part of the game for most people, and without knowing the rules, it's not going to be as satisfactory part of the game.
 

I can't. If a 50' fall isn't going to seriously hurt my characters, and I know that, and my character knows that, it's going to be seriously frustrating to me to be told that I've act as if my character doesn't know what falls feel like..
Know? Nobody knows that.

If realism is your concern in this then you need to make the scale of damage for a fall zero-death. People have survived amazing falls without any damage. People have died from slipping and hitting their head on the ground.
 

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