Why the World Exists

Sure it does, in the form of relatively reliable information about the challenges around them. The information that makes informed choices/'smart play' possible. This is all but a requirement of the game part of the game.

I've said this before, haven't I? :)

In a truly unfair world, one that merely 'was what it was', such reliable information wouldn't necessarily exist. PC's could stumble into certain death despite their best and most diligent efforts, occasionally random, inescapable dooms would sweep, tsunami-like, across these dangerous worlds --be they in the form of a horde of undead, rampaging giants, an elder wyrm having a bad day and an uncharacteristic fit of pique, or even an actually tsunamis, if the PC's are on the coast.

The setting is neccessarily contrived, to a certain extent, in order to make playing the game possible. It's not fair in that it's skewed slightly towards the players.

Again... assumptions are dangerous things...especially when broadly applied.
 

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In a truly unfair world....PC's could stumble into certain death despite their best and most diligent efforts

It's not fair in that it's skewed slightly towards the players.

Which is unfair, being able to stumble on certain death, or being unable to stumble on certain death?

Right now, your argument is "If A, then X" and "If not-A, then X".

And, yes, you did make that sort of argument before. ;)


RC
 

Sure it does, in the form of relatively reliable information about the challenges around them. The information that makes informed choices/'smart play' possible. This is all but a requirement of the game part of the game.

Are you referencing information about game mechanics, story descriptions, or both?

I would say giving out mechanical information about what the encounter is is not necessary, giving out a description of what it is, is.

If, for example, I say there is a 7th level orc barbarian wandering the fields - my 1st level party will actively avoid. However, if it is described as a large muscular orc with a red cloak, who the farmers say fought off a whole band of soldiers/goblins/dragons/whatever, then I have given them information that hints at the creature's power. And they can make decision accordingly. Maybe its head out to fight it, maybe its sneak by it, maybe its observe it to learn more.
 


What I am assuming? I mean, other than 'DM's take various steps to make the game playable'.

You are absolutely right in saying that the GM determines what exists in the world -- whether through creation if it's a homebrew, or exclusion/inclusion if it is not, or some combination thereof -- and by doing so make the world subjective.

However, I think the argument is less that the GM makes the game playable and more that the players make the game playable. That is to say, if the players wander hither and yon without any effort to understand the settings, or rush headlong into every fight with the assumption that they are all "level appropriate" or otherwise behave in a way that shows they don't acknowledge or believe that the world can kill them, they make the game unplayable (and then blame the GM). But if they do treat the world as a dangerous, wonderous place and do investigate and assess and respond, the game becomes playable.

I don't knopw any GMs that actively seek to inundate the player characters with insurmountable challenges and unsurvivable encounters that have players. I know too many, however, that are afraid to include those things at all because the "new school" of adventure paths and PC entitlement rules (wealth by level, frex) train players to expect victory regardless of the choices they make. Consequences, it seems, have fallen by the wayside.
 

In a truly unfair world, one that merely 'was what it was', such reliable information wouldn't necessarily exist. PC's could stumble into certain death despite their best and most diligent efforts, occasionally random, inescapable dooms would sweep, tsunami-like, across these dangerous worlds --be they in the form of a horde of undead, rampaging giants, an elder wyrm having a bad day and an uncharacteristic fit of pique, or even an actually tsunamis, if the PC's are on the coast.

I've always thought something of the sort would be a great way to start a campaign. It is a far more realistic beginning to a campaign than, "You all meet in a bar, and decide to trust each other with your lives despite your different backgrounds, then immediately decide to follow up on a rumor of a dangerous dungeon containing a treasure." Instead, the party would be thrown together as strangers by larger circumstances, and like so often happens on such occassions, would find themselves relying on strangers for their very survival.

If you look at real world disasters, they almost are never invariably lethal. Most real world disasters, even the most dramatic and large scale ones, might just kill 10% or 30% of the population. Not everyone died at Pompeii. Some of them said, "That looks bad, I'm getting out of town." Not everyone died when Krakataoa blew its top. Some of them made it to high ground. I would have no particular problem starting a campaign with a tsunami, an attack by an elder wyrm, or a horde of rampaging giants. That would be a very fun start to a campaign I think. It would provide the sort of immediate action that helps jump start a campaign and get everyone's attention. It would be a very nice hook. And, because it would be occurring first thing, the players almost certainly wouldn't be confused into thinking that the event is personal to them and requires dramatic on their part other than surviving.

There would to me be nothing particularly unfair about such a campaign start, because I've already stacked the deck in the PC's favor by allowing them to play a character with greater than average starting resources and abilities. If the event is going to kill say, 30% of the population, then they are very likely to be in the 70% of survivors. What would be unfair is staging such an event and having it be all about the PC's, as if they were the center of the universe and everything revolved around them. Sure, if the elder wyrm decided to target the PC's specifically, out of a population of 10,000 city dwellers, they wouldn't stand much of a chance. Similarly, if the tsunamii had been aimed by some hostile power (like the DM) specifically to drown the PC's, then they probably wouldn't stand a chance. But, if I treat them as mere average members of the city, then the elder wyrm will probably pay them no particular heed and the challenge the PC's will face will be much closer to the challenge most everyone else in the city faces - a challenge most of them will succeed at too.

If I ran such a game, I would probably ask everyone to start with two characters, just to ensure that no one would get put out of play in the first few minutes and be forced to watch (unfortunates that lost both characters could take one from someone with two), but since I've done that before, it wouldn't represent a dramatic departure from my normal low level play at least in that regard.

Sure, it's not possible for me to be perfectly unbiased in running such a scenario. I'm human. I don't have the ability or desire to run a simulation of 10,000 fleeing NPC's, so what the NPC's do is going to in fact be scripted rather than simulated. Not so for the PC's. I won't really have the slightest idea what they'll decide to do, and I'll probably only have some vague ideas about what they'll actually do to survive. They'll probably end up surprising me by doing something I never really considered.
 

Right now, your argument is "If A, then X" and "If not-A, then X".
My argument is really that there isn't that big a difference between sandbox games and non-sandbox games.

In neither is the world just the world, it's first and foremost a stage for play. In both PC's tend to face level-appropriate challenges, either by fiat or choice (and, as I've shown, that choice is itself enabled by an act of fiat). In both PC's start facing easy opponents, which rise in difficulty as the PC's increase in power.

Scaling difficulty is one the default assumptions of the system (any edition). There lots of ways to implement it, disguise it, rationalize it, wriggle around in its grasp, but it' basically inescapable.
 


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