Why the World Exists

[Ourph]

I suppose I could picture some long-winded Bard talking a White Dragon to death.

I suspect the Bard and Cleric got into an edition wars argument and the White Dragon offed itself rather than listen any longer.

 

[Reynard]

I suspect the Bard and Cleric got into an edition wars argument and the White Dragon offed itself rather than listen any longer.

Hardly necessary as the bard already had 6 levels of fighter and some thief levels. The white dragon never stood a chance.

 

[nightwyrm]

Hardly necessary as the bard already had 6 levels of fighter and some thief levels. The white dragon never stood a chance.

So the white dragon laughed himself to death?

 

[Jack7]

So the white dragon laughed himself to death?

You know the old saying, "A bard is a poet who dreams of comedy."

 

[Raven Crowking]

Within the larger context of making the game playable. This is true no matter how many layers of rationalization you layer on top.

Sure, so long as you accept that one approach creates a very different game than the other.....i.e., there is a real difference.

Otherwise, this is just a straw man. No one is disputing that RPG worlds are created as vehicles for which games are played, at least not so far as I can tell.


RC

 

[Wormwood]

tl;dr:

The world exists to solely facilitate play and entertain the group.

 

[The Shaman]

The world exists to solely facilitate play and entertain the group.

I'd be surprised if anyone in the thread disagrees with that.

However, there are different ways to play, different ways the world can facilitate play, and different ideas of what's entertaining. Thus . . .

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? The PCs or the World?

It seems one side arguing the world comes first and if its appropriate for the town to be attacked by hill giants the by-gods here come the rain of boulders, it doesn't matter if the PCs are powerful enough to face them in combat, they'll think of something or chalk it up to another lost town.

It doesn't matter if the adventurers are powerful enough to face them in combat if the encounter isn't about combat.

In this instance, the encounter may be about simple survival. Or about rescuing the villagers. Or saving a holy relic from the local temple. Or all of the above.

It may be about negotiating with the giants, offering them something they want in exchange for sparing the town. It may be about outwitting the hill giants, luring them off, misdirecting them, not facing them down. And it may be setting the stage for the adventurers' return to drive off the giants later.

In my experience, if the response to everything in the game is swords and spells, the game gets stale very fast.

The other side is saying "but if the DM is going through the trouble of putting something there, then it makes sense the PCs should be able to handle it." There is no point in wasting time statting up monsters the PCs won't fight or creating scenarios that will either bore or crush their characters.

It's only a waste of time if you expect the only reason for creating encounters is combat..

While I DO agree powerful things should exist independent of PC levels (its not like giants magically move downriver and kick the orcs out now that the PCs are 10th level) . . .

That would actually make a perfectly valid motivation for the hill giants to in fact move downriver: the hill giants hear of the adventurers and decide to capture the adventurers, take their treasure, and ransom them to the king. Monsters can be proactive, too, and their intelligence can be as faulty as that of the adventurers.

. . . you have to agree that by-and-large PCs should face appropriate level encounters and receive appropriate level rewards, otherwise its OK to use Hill giants as a challenge for 5th level PCs.

I really don't have to agree to any such thing.

It's up to the adventurers to decide what's appropriate and what isn't. They need to be alert and use the resources available to them, magical and mundane, to survive. Sometimes they'll be confronted with opponents more powerful than they are; sometimes they get to tee off on some opponent that is laughably far below them. This is the nature of the world in which they live, and these are the consequences of the choices they make.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Deleted for more snarkiness than I intended.

 

[D.Shaffer]

All the bits about dragons that the PC's may or may not encounter seems a bit odd to me. If you dont intend the PC's to EVER encounter the dragon, why bother mentioning it to begin with? Someone earlier mentioned the old Dungeon rule of 'Dont do more work then you have too'. This harken back to Chehkov's Gun. If you mention something, it should be important later on, else you shouldnt waste time on mentioning it as it doesnt matter.

As to the Treasure wish lists thing. Eh. I dont like wish lists, but I'll tailor the treasure to something the PC's can actually use...if just because otherwise you'll end up with a session of the PC's doing nothing but tracking down stuff they actually want or can use.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here's the thing: we're not talking about adventure design, we are talking about setting design. I don't think Imaro, RC or any of us are suggesting that the DM designs a 10th level adventure for a 2nd level party. Rather, that the setting includes elements that cut across the spectrum of the "level spread" and that those things exist, as they are, regardless of the level of the PCs at the time the PCs might encounter them. That Jade Jaws lives within a few days travel of the PCs home village (he likes to occasionally snack on the goat herds and sometimes a traveler or two) doesn't mean that Jade Jaws is the target of the first, or in fact any, of the PCs' adventures. He's a setting element, one with which the PCs may or may not interact with based on their choices and perhaps (un)luck

Of course the setting contains higher level or "inappropriate" threats. If that's what you want to "hear", yeah, of course that's the approach you will take when generating a new setting or campaign background.

Whether I will have them flashed out and populate random encounter tables is a different matter. I will not put much thought into any 15th level challenges while the PCs are 1st level when I design my setting. Unless I do it by accident ("there are Mind Flayers around,or whatever other monster is in that level range these days" )