Why the World Exists

[Imaro]

All the bits about dragons that the PC's may or may not encounter seems a bit odd to me. If you dont intend the PC's to EVER encounter the dragon, why bother mentioning it to begin with? Someone earlier mentioned the old Dungeon rule of 'Dont do more work then you have too'. This harken back to Chehkov's Gun. If you mention something, it should be important later on, else you shouldnt waste time on mentioning it as it doesnt matter.

Are you talking about a sandbox campaign here? If so the DM doesn't decide when, how or why the PC's interact with something... he only determines what is there to interact with and where it is. Now there are two types of DM's who create a sandbox, the first will put up arbitrary restrictions and contrivances to make sure you only encounter level-appropriate encounters (honestly this isn't really a sandbox IMO but is more the illusionism Cadfan speaks of earlier)... the second type will allow his players to explore whatever they want but won't arbitrarily try and stop the PC's from biting off more than they may be able to chew (though if they put the effort forward he will inform them about the challenges they are seeking out).

Think of it like an amusement park where, you have various rides that one can experience. With the first type of DM running the amusement park there are guards at each ride and if you don't meet the age/height/etc. requirements you are not allowed on that ride...period. How, when and why you get on a particular ride is up to you, you're just extremely limited in what rides are available.

With the second type of DM running the game, There might be signs by the rides telling you the recommended height/age/etc. but no guard is going to forcibly remove you or block it. You can make what some might consider a bad choice (get on a ride that is more than you can handle and end up throwing up) or a relatively safe choice (hey look the merry-go-round) you could even be the type that risks the supposed "bad choice" and walks away with nothing more than a grin and an adrenaline rush.

Finally you also get rewarded foir each ride you take, the scarier the more you get... only in the first DM's amusement park you get a good average but no high or low prizes... while in the second if you are willing ot take bigger risks you can garner bigger rewards.

 

[wedgeski]

I've fully embraced the gamist elements of the latest version of the game and we're having a blast with it... which is why I have absolutely no problem with wish lists, and we use them pretty much as the DMG suggests. The justification is easy: part of heroism is being in the right place at the right time: the Paladin who finds the Holy Avenger or the mage who stumbles upon the Staff of Wizardry. These are people who want to change the world around them and suddenly have the means to do it... of *course* they're going to be the ones who have an epic destiny and whose names will be remembered. It's their story you're building over the course of 30 levels, not the story of the sorcerer who only ever found plate mail or the rogue who always rolled a 1 on Stealth checks. History will forget those guys.

 

[Reynard]

I've fully embraced the gamist elements of the latest version of the game and we're having a blast with it... which is why I have absolutely no problem with wish lists, and we use them pretty much as the DMG suggests. The justification is easy: part of heroism is being in the right place at the right time: the Paladin who finds the Holy Avenger or the mage who stumbles upon the Staff of Wizardry. These are people who want to change the world around them and suddenly have the means to do it... of *course* they're going to be the ones who have an epic destiny and whose names will be remembered. It's their story you're building over the course of 30 levels, not the story of the sorcerer who only ever found plate mail or the rogue who always rolled a 1 on Stealth checks. History will forget those guys.

No PC is preordained for greatness. None have a destiny thrust upon them. PCs must make their own destiny, and it is through their deeds that they are remembered.

 

[Imaro]

I've fully embraced the gamist elements of the latest version of the game and we're having a blast with it... which is why I have absolutely no problem with wish lists, and we use them pretty much as the DMG suggests. The justification is easy: part of heroism is being in the right place at the right time: the Paladin who finds the Holy Avenger or the mage who stumbles upon the Staff of Wizardry. These are people who want to change the world around them and suddenly have the means to do it... of *course* they're going to be the ones who have an epic destiny and whose names will be remembered. It's their story you're building over the course of 30 levels, not the story of the sorcerer who only ever found plate mail or the rogue who always rolled a 1 on Stealth checks. History will forget those guys.

I'm just curious, do you allow PC's to die in your games or is it something like a death flag game?

 

[billd91]

All the bits about dragons that the PC's may or may not encounter seems a bit odd to me. If you dont intend the PC's to EVER encounter the dragon, why bother mentioning it to begin with? Someone earlier mentioned the old Dungeon rule of 'Dont do more work then you have too'. This harken back to Chehkov's Gun. If you mention something, it should be important later on, else you shouldnt waste time on mentioning it as it doesnt matter.

Even in a more plotted, less sandbox game, there may be time for PC-driven side-treks. How are they going to have the freedom to choose any if none are introduced?
Plus, don't overuse Chekhov's gun. He was referring to a monologue in a play... a work of art in which the audience does not actively participate. A campaign world is different in the sense the the audience (players) is also a participant and can determine for itself whether Chekhov's gun will (or will not) be fired.

 

[wedgeski]

No PC is preordained for greatness. None have a destiny thrust upon them. PCs must make their own destiny, and it is through their deeds that they are remembered.

That is contrary to one of the central conceits of 4th Edition, which is the game I play, so I can't say as I agree with that.

I'm just curious, do you allow PC's to die in your games or is it something like a death flag game?

Yes they can die, but it's no secret to my players that I don't like doing it. Besides, the thrust of your question suggests I didn't make myself clear. All I'm saying is that justifying the fulfilment of a PC wish-list is simply a matter of divorcing player aspiration from PC aspiration; your player knows just how awesome this or that item will be for his character, but your PC may not even know what it is, let alone where to find it. It falls into his hands anyway. Fate, luck, destiny, call it what you want. We already know we're dealing with people for whom history has set aside a spot on the mantlepiece.

 

[The Shaman]

I've fully embraced the gamist elements of the latest version of the game and we're having a blast with it... which is why I have absolutely no problem with wish lists, and we use them pretty much as the DMG suggests. The justification is easy: part of heroism is being in the right place at the right time: the Paladin who finds the Holy Avenger or the mage who stumbles upon the Staff of Wizardry. These are people who want to change the world around them and suddenly have the means to do it... of *course* they're going to be the ones who have an epic destiny and whose names will be remembered. It's their story you're building over the course of 30 levels, not the story of the sorcerer who only ever found plate mail or the rogue who always rolled a 1 on Stealth checks. History will forget those guys.

That's one approach.

No PC is preordained for greatness. None have a destiny thrust upon them. PCs must make their own destiny, and it is through their deeds that they are remembered.

And that's another.

Personally, I'd choose Reynard's game. But that's just me.

 

[Reynard]

I just wanted to say (because it isn't said enough of forums, IMO) that despite differences of opinion, I think we are having a really good, productive discussion and I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

 

[The Ghost]

I just wanted to say (because it isn't said enough of forums, IMO) that despite differences of opinion, I think we are having a really good, productive discussion and I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

Agreed!

I've fully embraced the gamist elements of the latest version of the game and we're having a blast with it... which is why I have absolutely no problem with wish lists, and we use them pretty much as the DMG suggests. The justification is easy: part of heroism is being in the right place at the right time: the Paladin who finds the Holy Avenger or the mage who stumbles upon the Staff of Wizardry. These are people who want to change the world around them and suddenly have the means to do it... of *course* they're going to be the ones who have an epic destiny and whose names will be remembered. It's their story you're building over the course of 30 levels, not the story of the sorcerer who only ever found plate mail or the rogue who always rolled a 1 on Stealth checks. History will forget those guys.

There is a problem that I have with this concept, and perhaps you can explain it to me. Setting aside strategy and tactics for a moment, outcomes in this game are determined by a roll of the die. As we all know, and as we all have probably experienced, dice in this game will run hot and cold. There will be times when you never roll under a 15, and there will be times when you never roll above a 5. If I state from the beginning of the game that my character is a hero, then how do I rationalize those times when the dice runs cold and the result is a character death, or worse, a TPK? Can I consider those characters to be heroes? I don't know. What did they do that was heroic? Is just being an adventurer enough to make one a hero? I guess, I have a hard time with that concept.

Case in point, I play in a monthly campaign that, last night, ended in a near TPK. My character was the only one left standing. For ten rounds of combat I never rolled above a six. The rest of the group was not much better. Do I consider this character a hero? Maybe. He still has a story left to tell. Can I consider his companions heroes? No. They never did anything heroic, IMHO. We had the opportunity to become heroes, but the dice (destiny?) did not allow it. So long as there is an element of chance built into the game, how do I accept from the beginning that my character is special?

 

[Reynard]

So long as there is an element of chance built into the game, how do I accept from the beginning that my character is special?

This is probably the pre-eminent aspect that makes my playstyle what it is and informs my poreferences. The first time ever to sit down and play D&D, I was 10 years old with my 2 brothers playing and my dad running the introductory adventure in the "Red Box". I died the first time 10 minutes in, killed by the carrion crawler under the old rotted gate -- partly because of dice and partly because of decisions I made. And you know what? It was AWESOME!

So while I understand and respect that other people play differently than me and have their own preferences, the simple fact is that for me, as a player or a DM, the game is more fun when chance and choice have equal weight in the outcome, and when a character is as likely to become a smear on the bottom of a spiked pit as a legendary hero.