D&D General Why TSR-era D&D Will Always Be D&D

[Thomas Shey]

Having played AD&D, I agree with most of this, but didn't all those spells exist too? Clerics could create water (and later food and water), Leomund's Tiny Hut was there (though, admittedly, it wasn't an invincible bivouac), etc.?

This is something that always surprised me when I started playing 3e. Suddenly, a spellcaster's ability to trivialize wilderness survival was a big deal among a lot of DM's I played with, and quite a few on early forums, and has remained so to this very day- but the precursors of all these spells were around in 1st and 2nd Edition! Did no one use them back in the day?

I'd suggest a big part of that was speed of advancement. There was a signficant difference in how fast you hit higher levels (by which I mean above 3rd) so a lot of things that put their thumb on this were available earlier (which often meant, in practice, at all) that hadn't been previously.

 

[Mercurius]

The problem with the conversation about 4e is that people want to point to the economic failure of 4e as proof that 4e was a "bad" game. I'm not saying you're doing this @Mercurius. I don't think you are. But, so many people want to justify their playstyle preferences and justify forcing those preferences on everyone else by claiming that "Well, that was tried in 4e and 4e was rejected, so, we can't do that now." when the economic failure of 4e had virtually nothing to do with the mechanics or the changes 4e made and a lot more to do with timing, outside forces and unreasonable marketing goals.

Yeah, I hear you - and that's kind of why, when this topic comes up, I over-explain and disclaim that discussing the failure of 4E to catch on and last is not an indictment of the game itself; the corollary being that the quality of the game and its popularity have no direct relationship. Actually, the quote you posted sort of supports this idea that a lot of 4E's failure had nothing to do with the game itself, but other factors (marketing, etc) - and that, as we agree, it might have done really well, even as well as 5E did, given the context and other factors that were at play over the last eight years.

I mean, even art and presentation is a huge factor. I remember people being upset about the big white spaces and the lack of Todd Lockwood art. I didn't love the 4E presentation, and preferred the dense look of the 3.5 books (although not the covers, which almost worked but looked a little too kitschy, like something intentionally retro that you'd buy at Michael's crafts rather than in an actual antique shop). This illustrates how secondary elements like presentation go a long way towards how one feels about the substance itself. Or as Marshall McLuhan was famous for saying, the medium is the message - or rather, what we hear is how things are said just as much--if not more so--than what is actually being said.

 

[overgeeked]

Having played AD&D, I agree with most of this, but didn't all those spells exist too? Clerics could create water (and later food and water), Leomund's Tiny Hut was there (though, admittedly, it wasn't an invincible bivouac), etc.?

This is something that always surprised me when I started playing 3e. Suddenly, a spellcaster's ability to trivialize wilderness survival was a big deal among a lot of DM's I played with, and quite a few on early forums, and has remained so to this very day- but the precursors of all these spells were around in 1st and 2nd Edition! Did no one use them back in the day?

As mentioned, the spells were different. It also took a long time for you to get your spells back, especially at higher levels. There was also a lot more explicit control over what spells were in the game in AD&D than now. So if a DM didn't want Leomund's Tiny Hut in the game, the magic-user simply never got it. That was written into the rules of how magic worked.

Regaining spells was an ordeal in AD&D. Minutes or hours spent in study, prayer, and/or meditation. Every single day. Not just automatically pop, you get them after a nap. You had to rest a certain amount of time depending on the level of spells you wanted to recover, from 4 hours for 1st-level spells up to 12 hours for 9th-level spells. After that rest was completed in full...and this was the days of wandering monsters and any combat interrupting rests...you had to study, pray, and/or meditate for 15 minutes per spell level...for each spell...memorized individually. So if you memorized fireball once, you got to cast it once. You memorize cure light wounds twice, you got to cast it twice. So those "nice lazy days of just healing the party" were incredibly risky. You don't pack some combat spells and you get hit with a wandering monster...you're screwed. Most times you'd go into a delve as rested and prepared as you possibly could (and armed with as much information as you could and as many dirty tricks and combat as war shenanigans up your sleeves as you could manage) and know that it was time to head back when you were about 60-75% down on resources otherwise you'd be overextended and not likely to make it back home alive. There was no setting up Leomund's Tiny Hut in the dungeon and just getting a rest.

Also, the text of the spells are wildly different, take Leomund's Tiny Hut as an example. It should also be noted that in AD&D Leomund's Tiny Hut cost you a third-level spell slot whereas in 5E LTH is a ritual...so you can cast it an infinite number of times. Text from each edition below.

AD&D:
"When this spell is cast, the magic-user causes an opaque sphere of force to come into being around his or her person, half of the sphere projecting above the ground or floor surface, the lower hemisphere passing through the surface. This field causes the interior of the sphere to maintain at 70° F. temperature in cold to 0° F., and heat up to 105° F. Cold below 0° lowers inside temperature on a 1° for 1° basis, heat above 105° raises the inside temperature likewise. The tiny hut will withstand winds up to 50 m.p.h. without being harmed, but wind force greater than that will destroy it. The interior of the tiny hut is a hemisphere, and the spell caster can illuminate it dimly upon command, or extinguish the light as desired. Note that although the force field is opaque from positions outside, it is transparent from within. In no way will Leomund’s tiny hut provide protection from missiles, weapons, spells, and the like. Up to 6 other mansized creatures can fit into the field with its creator, and these others can freely pass in and out of the tiny hut without harming it, but if the spell caster removes himself from it, the spell will dissipate. The material component for this spell is a small crystal bead which will shatter when spell duration expires or the hut is otherwise dispelled."

5E:
"A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.

Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside.

Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside."

So those bolded bits are important. It goes from a minor effect that costs you a 3rd-level spell slot...to a globe of invulnerability to everything, including magic (except dispel magic), that you can cast an infinite number of times.

 

[James Gasik]

As mentioned, the spells were different. It also took a long time for you to get your spells back, especially at higher levels. There was also a lot more explicit control over what spells were in the game in AD&D than now. So if a DM didn't want Leomund's Tiny Hut in the game, the magic-user simply never got it. That was written into the rules of how magic worked.

Regaining spells was an ordeal in AD&D. Minutes or hours spent in study, prayer, and/or meditation. Every single day. Not just automatically pop, you get them after a nap. You had to rest a certain amount of time depending on the level of spells you wanted to recover, from 4 hours for 1st-level spells up to 12 hours for 9th-level spells. After that rest was completed in full...and this was the days of wandering monsters and any combat interrupting rests...you had to study, pray, and/or meditate for 15 minutes per spell level...for each spell...memorized individually. So if you memorized fireball once, you got to cast it once. You memorize cure light wounds twice, you got to cast it twice. So those "nice lazy days of just healing the party" were incredibly risky. You don't pack some combat spells and you get hit with a wandering monster...you're screwed. Most times you'd go into a delve as rested and prepared as you possibly could (and armed with as much information as you could and as many dirty tricks and combat as war shenanigans up your sleeves as you could manage) and know that it was time to head back when you were about 60-75% down on resources otherwise you'd be overextended and not likely to make it back home alive. There was no setting up Leomund's Tiny Hut in the dungeon and just getting a rest.

Also, the text of the spells are wildly different, take Leomund's Tiny Hut as an example. It should also be noted that in AD&D Leomund's Tiny Hut cost you a third-level spell slot whereas in 5E LTH is a ritual...so you can cast it an infinite number of times. Text from each edition below.

AD&D:
"When this spell is cast, the magic-user causes an opaque sphere of force to come into being around his or her person, half of the sphere projecting above the ground or floor surface, the lower hemisphere passing through the surface. This field causes the interior of the sphere to maintain at 70° F. temperature in cold to 0° F., and heat up to 105° F. Cold below 0° lowers inside temperature on a 1° for 1° basis, heat above 105° raises the inside temperature likewise. The tiny hut will withstand winds up to 50 m.p.h. without being harmed, but wind force greater than that will destroy it. The interior of the tiny hut is a hemisphere, and the spell caster can illuminate it dimly upon command, or extinguish the light as desired. Note that although the force field is opaque from positions outside, it is transparent from within. In no way will Leomund’s tiny hut provide protection from missiles, weapons, spells, and the like. Up to 6 other mansized creatures can fit into the field with its creator, and these others can freely pass in and out of the tiny hut without harming it, but if the spell caster removes himself from it, the spell will dissipate. The material component for this spell is a small crystal bead which will shatter when spell duration expires or the hut is otherwise dispelled."

5E:
"A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.

Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside.

Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside."

So those bolded bits are important. It goes from a minor effect that costs you a 3rd-level spell slot...to a globe of invulnerability to everything, including magic (except dispel magic), that you can cast an infinite number of times.

Oh I noted it wasn't an invulnerable redoubt, and that does make a bit of difference. But it still protected you from the environment, and made it hard for enemies to see what was going on inside. I guess the opportunity cost of spell slots would be enough to reign in magical solutions somewhat.

I didn't play many Clerics in AD&D, other than specialty priests, because I didn't like being told I couldn't cast spells other than Cure X Wounds (even though, given how healing worked, those were your bread and butter).

But if I had, I'm sure the instant the DM was like "you are critically low on drinking water", I'd be praying for Create Water.

Of course, I'd be remiss, in 2e, at least, settings weren't afraid to ban or nerf spells wholesale that would be too useful- Create Water won't cure your woes in Dark Sun, for example.

Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Dark Sun- I don't know about other settings, but all three had a huge list of altered or removed spells.

 

[Tazawa]

I love Catra!

I am Catra!

 

[Lanefan]

AD&D:
"When this spell is cast, the magic-user causes an opaque sphere of force to come into being around his or her person, half of the sphere projecting above the ground or floor surface, the lower hemisphere passing through the surface. This field causes the interior of the sphere to maintain at 70° F. temperature in cold to 0° F., and heat up to 105° F. Cold below 0° lowers inside temperature on a 1° for 1° basis, heat above 105° raises the inside temperature likewise. The tiny hut will withstand winds up to 50 m.p.h. without being harmed, but wind force greater than that will destroy it. The interior of the tiny hut is a hemisphere, and the spell caster can illuminate it dimly upon command, or extinguish the light as desired. Note that although the force field is opaque from positions outside, it is transparent from within. In no way will Leomund’s tiny hut provide protection from missiles, weapons, spells, and the like. Up to 6 other mansized creatures can fit into the field with its creator, and these others can freely pass in and out of the tiny hut without harming it, but if the spell caster removes himself from it, the spell will dissipate. The material component for this spell is a small crystal bead which will shatter when spell duration expires or the hut is otherwise dispelled."

Side note: for those of us who like consistency in our game-world physics, this spell write-up is a disaster!

The spell is specifically noted as not providing protection from missiles etc., which means untended solid objects can pass through. Yet it's assumed (but, oddly enough, not mentioned) that the Hut protects those inside from snow or hail - which are also solid objects.

5E:
"A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The spell ends if you leave its area.

Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside.

Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside."

This version is at least consistent with itself in that nothing from outside can enter the dome once it's been cast, no matter what it is*. That said, this version is also way more powerful; too much so IMO.

* - though there's an unintended headache in this version too: strictly as written, if you leave the hut with an empty jug to fetch water from the stream the jug can come back in with you but the water you just put in it cannot.

 

[Hussar]

The biggest issue though is simply the sheer number of spells casters get in later era D&D. Remember, your 3e wizard (or later) is getting bonus spells at each spell level (probably up to 4th in 3e) and can recover spells during the day without resting. Plus, since 5e makes all casters basically sorcerers, you don't need to lock in slots. You can have fireball and Leo's Hut, and if you don't need the Hut, you can just fireball again. Plus, with upcasting, you can simply burn that 3rd level slot on a 2nd or 1st level spell in a pinch.

It was far more common in AD&D for casters to have unspent spells all the time. And the opportunity cost of taking spells that were more limited use just wasn't worth it.

OTOH, in 5e, I am seeing spells being used that I had never seen used in D&D before. Heck, our Cleric just cast Control Water and the group was nowhere near a boat. I'd never seen that before.

 

[Staffan]

OTOH, in 5e, I am seeing spells being used that I had never seen used in D&D before. Heck, our Cleric just cast Control Water and the group was nowhere near a boat. I'd never seen that before.

In our Princes of the Apocalypse campaign, one of the party clerics casting Control Water simplified the end fight in the Water Node immensely. Instead of an aboleth being able to swim around mostly undisturbed, using various mental shenanigans and tentacling things, the whole fight essentially became a land battle where everyone could unload all they had at my poor abomination from the dawn of time. Grossly unfair.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yeah, not really buying the "hawt taek"...not that that's terribly surprising.

AD&D has been dominant because it has been, and for the time being is, the majority of the time that D&D has existed. OD&D was published in 1974. 3.0, the first non-TSR edition, was published in 2000. Already, just with that game, major elements had been shorn away, things like variable XP tables, descending AC, and the plethora of dice used for resolving tasks, but yes, it was still heavily conditioned by AD&D because AD&D was the only source to draw on at the time. That was 26 years after the publication of OD&D. When "5.5e" comes out, presuming they do follow through with the 2024 release date, we'll have spent only 24 years in the "there is a published non-TSR edition" period. It won't be until 2026 that WotC D&D will have existed as long as TSR D&D.

After that point, you will see the dominance of TSR D&D decline, because it will be steadily less of the total. It will still have influence, but it will no longer dominate. Like the difference between Old English and Modern English; Old English now comprises only a small portion of the history of the English language. Old English began to form in about 700 AD, brought on by the Saxons. Middle English developed in the latter half of the 11th century (after the Norman conquest). Early Modern English started up around the 1400s, and Modern English started to form in the 1700s. EME and ME are pretty much 100% mutually intelligible, just with outdated definitions or obsolete words (thee/thy/thine). Middle English is difficult to read, but often still more or less intelligible. Meaning, we've had language that more closely resembles what we use today than the roots of English for just shy of a thousand years. That's at least two or three times as long as Old English existed before the Norman Conquest.

You'll see a similar development in D&D. AD&D will still have influence, we'll still find connections back. But over time, between drift, new elements (consider: dragonborn are here to stay), adaptation to new audiences, etc., the game will evolve.

Will TSR D&D always be part of D&D? Sure, though that's a truism. We can't erase that it happened, and it's the ancestral generation.

Will TSR D&D always define what D&D can be? Absolutely not, no matter how much you would like it to.

 

[Alzrius]

Side note: for those of us who like consistency in our game-world physics, this spell write-up is a disaster!

The spell is specifically noted as not providing protection from missiles etc., which means untended solid objects can pass through. Yet it's assumed (but, oddly enough, not mentioned) that the Hut protects those inside from snow or hail - which are also solid objects.

I'd always chalked that up to an issue of mass. Raindrops and snowflakes will be caught by the hemisphere, but anything more substantial will go right through it. I suppose that might be an issue if you compare heavy hailstones to, say, sling bullets, but for the most part I thought it worked fine.