D&D General Why TSR-era D&D Will Always Be D&D

[Ovinomancer]

Oh absolutely. The number of gamers who come into the hobby by way of DnD dwarfs any other way in.

Come, now, it's D&D. You clearly mean "...elf any other way in."

 

[Hussar]

Come, now, it's D&D. You clearly mean "...elf any other way in."

LOL.

But, I do think this is a point that gets kind of ignored though. I mean people often lauded the 3pp games for expanding the hobby. Things like Mutants and Masterminds or whatever. Lots of incredibly creative stuff. But, my question was always about that "expanding" part. How many people's first RPG was Mutants and Masterminds (or whatever) and not D&D?

Yes, yes, I know YOU in the back started with some other game. Thank you, you can sit down now.

My point being, nothing draws in new gamers like D&D. Two years of no WotC publications and the gaming market did... nothing. Sat there, coasting on autopilot at around that 10 or 15 million dollars a year mark. It's not like even Paizo was pulling in large numbers of new gamers.

The flow of warm bodies into the hobby goes in one direction only. Pull D&D out of the mix, and the hobby will coast on autopilot for a few years and then die as no new gamers come in. It's a sad truth, but, it's still the truth AFAIC.

 

[CleverNickName]

My point being, nothing draws in new gamers like D&D. Two years of no WotC publications and the gaming market did... nothing. Sat there, coasting on autopilot at around that 10 or 15 million dollars a year mark. It's not like even Paizo was pulling in large numbers of new gamers.

The flow of warm bodies into the hobby goes in one direction only. Pull D&D out of the mix, and the hobby will coast on autopilot for a few years and then die as no new gamers come in. It's a sad truth, but, it's still the truth AFAIC.

I hate that this is true, but this is true.

 

[Hussar]

I hate that this is true, but this is true.

Oh, totally.

I mean, it's really hard sometimes to try to get people who've only gamed D&D to try other games. And then, when you finally manage to convince those four or five people to try this new game, something you've been jonesing to run for ages and have spent an embarrassing amount of time thinking about and planning, and within 15 minutes, it's a D&D game in everything but name.

 

[James Gasik]

You can lead a player to a new game, but you can't make them like it. But maybe I'll get to run that Earthdawn campaign once before I shuffle off this mortal coil...I just need the right people...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Hmm. I think they do use a fair amount of old lore.

One thing I think they're sensitive to in 5E design that they were less so in 4E design is look and feel. Does Fireball look and FEEL like Fireball? How about Magic Missile? How about Wizards? Does the Wizard class do the stuff a player expects a D&D Wizard to be able to do?

Where 4E had (for example) a Daily spell called Fireball, it represented a much more significant mechanical departure. The square (cube) shape, for example. The base damage being much lower on first glance. The fact that as a Daily power you couldn't "memorize" it multiple times.

The 5E design hearkens back much more to the look and feel of 1E Fireball. Even the fact that they boosted the damage above what would be expected by the general design guidelines, to better fulfill the memetic IDEA of Fireball in the mass consciousness.

5e started using a lot of the old lore, but they've been using less and less over the years, and that process has accelerated recently.

 

[Thomas Shey]

LOL.

But, I do think this is a point that gets kind of ignored though. I mean people often lauded the 3pp games for expanding the hobby. Things like Mutants and Masterminds or whatever. Lots of incredibly creative stuff. But, my question was always about that "expanding" part. How many people's first RPG was Mutants and Masterminds (or whatever) and not D&D?

How many people are uninterested in fantasy?

Yes, yes, I know YOU in the back started with some other game. Thank you, you can sit down now.

My point being, nothing draws in new gamers like D&D. Two years of no WotC publications and the gaming market did... nothing. Sat there, coasting on autopilot at around that 10 or 15 million dollars a year mark. It's not like even Paizo was pulling in large numbers of new gamers.

The flow of warm bodies into the hobby goes in one direction only. Pull D&D out of the mix, and the hobby will coast on autopilot for a few years and then die as no new gamers come in. It's a sad truth, but, it's still the truth AFAIC.

I'm not going to suggest that D&D is not the gateway, but I have to suggest there are people who are never going to come in that way. How many? No clue, and I doubt there's any way to find out. But I'm going to absolutely say the number of people who either have no interest in fantasy, or encounter gaming through people who just don't do D&D is non-zero.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh, totally.

I mean, it's really hard sometimes to try to get people who've only gamed D&D to try other games. And then, when you finally manage to convince those four or five people to try this new game, something you've been jonesing to run for ages and have spent an embarrassing amount of time thinking about and planning, and within 15 minutes, it's a D&D game in everything but name.

This constantly boggles me. Back when early on in the hobby, I can't say I ever had trouble getting people to try new games. And you'd think in the days when D&D was for a while, literally the only game in town, that'd have been less true.

 

[Vaalingrade]

LOL.

But, I do think this is a point that gets kind of ignored though. I mean people often lauded the 3pp games for expanding the hobby. Things like Mutants and Masterminds or whatever. Lots of incredibly creative stuff. But, my question was always about that "expanding" part. How many people's first RPG was Mutants and Masterminds (or whatever) and not D&D?

In the 90's and early 00's, a TON of people came in via Vampire and licensed RPGs like the various BESM spinoffs for specific anime, and Call of Cthulu. Shadowrun as no slouch of pulling people either.

Now the interesting thing is, a lot of these entrants came in though the accessibility of d20 adaptations. So really, d20 is to thank for a lot of the uptick in RPG popularity, not D&D specifically.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In the 90's and early 00's, a TON of people came in via Vampire and licensed RPGs like the various BESM spinoffs for specific anime, and Call of Cthulu. Shadowrun as no slouch of pulling people either.

Now the interesting thing is, a lot of these entrants came in though the accessibility of d20 adaptations. So really, d20 is to thank for a lot of the uptick in RPG popularity, not D&D specifically.

Even beyond that: anything which contributes to retaining people in the hobby overall is a good thing.

If D&D is so vital that it acts as the only onramp for TTRPGs, then the hobby is always and eternally in peril of literally just dying out because one company went belly-up.