D&D 4E Why Vampires Suck in 3.X, and How 4e Can Fix Them

[Wormwood]

Don't forget SKR's fleshbound vampire template, which I believe is more in line with a 'my character was bitten by a vampire' storyline.

 

[Stoat]

Level adjustment aside, the D&D vampire makes a poor PC. Vulnerabilities to sunlight and running water are weird penalties that can screw up an adventuring party as noted above.

DR and Regeneration are more helpful for PC's (who frequently face foes without magic weapons and who have good opportunities to take 5 or 10 minutes to regenerate to max HP) than they are to NPC's (who fight PC's w/ magic weapons and in my experience tend to get whacked before they can retreat and regen).

The ability to Dominate at-will and to create loyal spawn is thematically appropriate to an NPC, but can be a real hassle when given to a PC.

These points exist independently of the Vampire's ability increases, bonus feats, and special attacks.

IMO, there are only two solutions: (1) strip out a lot of archtypical special powers and weaknesses or (2) make the whole party play as vampires.

I don't like option 1, and I think White Wolf has a lock on option 2.

 

[Umbran]

However. There are rules, right there in the core books, about a character being infected with lycanthropy. Once a character is infected, he doesn't become an NPC. He's expected to deal with it. It's an implied threat of all lycanthropes - one of the things that make them scary as opponents.

So it's not a hard stretch to say the same should apply for vampires.

Problem: a ECL +0 and class-based approach... makes it something to look forward to, not something that needs to be "dealt with". Except for issues with the party paladin or cleric, that model makes vampirism no more a thing to be dealt with than being an elven fighter. Vampire and werewolf stories aren't usually about embracing the human monster within and using more and more of its powers to be a better person, you know.

I would prefer a more... Sanity/Humanity Point based approach. The character does not become an NPC immediately, but they will if they allow the inhuman monster to take control.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

IMO, there are only two solutions: (1) strip out a lot of archtypical special powers and weaknesses or (2) make the whole party play as vampires.

I don't like option 1, and I think White Wolf has a lock on option 2.

That's just my point, though, and I'm proposing a third path: gradual accumulation of those iconic abilities for vampires who choose to focus on their unholy powers.

 

[Wormwood]

That's just my point, though, and I'm proposing a third path: gradual accumulation of those iconic abilities for vampires who choose to focus on their unholy powers.

I believe we'll have to see exactly *how* 4e handles class abilities before we can come up with a Savage Species equivalent.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Problem: a ECL +0 and class-based approach... makes it something to look forward to, not something that needs to be "dealt with". Except for issues with the party paladin or cleric, that model makes vampirism no more a thing to be dealt with than being an elven fighter. Vampire and werewolf stories aren't usually about embracing the human monster within and using more and more of its powers to be a better person, you know.

It could easily still be something to be dealt with, following the iconic weaknesses of vampires. A purebred munchkin could still reject vampirism for the added weakness against enemy clerics and the difficulties stemming from adventuring solely at night. A good-aligned character could really see it as a curse when he starts taking penalties for not drinking the blood of the living.

 

[Anthtriel]

The full package of what? No con score (making you immune to all fort saves)? The immunity to illusions and enchantments?

Well, there is no good reason why all undead should have those two anyway, and I suspect they won't in 4E.
Taking the con score away from undead created all kinds of minor annoying effects, like high level undead having very few HP. It's much more sensible to make them immune to tiring and the like and argue that con score for undead describes their toughness.
Fantasy sometimes has undead being fooled by illusion or enchantments, especially vampires, so I see no reason why they should be completely immune.

Problem: a ECL +0 and class-based approach... makes it something to look forward to, not something that needs to be "dealt with". Except for issues with the party paladin or cleric, that model makes vampirism no more a thing to be dealt with than being an elven fighter. Vampire and werewolf stories aren't usually about embracing the human monster within and using more and more of its powers to be a better person, you know.

The idea would be to give them very minor, if any benefits at first. If there are minor advantages, they would be balanced against minor (or not so minor) disadvantages like needing to consume blood and a penalty when acting in sunlight.

A PC wouldn't have to "give in" to his inner monster for more vampire abilities, you could just argue his curse gets stronger. The whole thing would need to be very optional of course, and you probably don't want to have PCs who let themselves get infected or killed on purpose.

 

[Rechan]

Problem: a ECL +0 and class-based approach... makes it something to look forward to, not something that needs to be "dealt with". Except for issues with the party paladin or cleric, that model makes vampirism no more a thing to be dealt with than being an elven fighter. Vampire and werewolf stories aren't usually about embracing the human monster within and using more and more of its powers to be a better person, you know.

On the one hand, I agree. On the other hand, White Wolf is very popular giving you the options of playing these monsters. And as someone who loves playing kobolds, and has had a LN True Werewolf DMPC in a party before (because they had no tank), I don't think it's a problem. But, like playing a tri-keen, when you become Monster X, you need to understand that your priorities, your psychology has now shifted, and you need to act differently.

For the inflicted werewolf, being inflicted shouldn't be fun.

It's not "Hey cool I'm a werewolf now, I can go kick butt!" It's "When I lose control I become CE and not under my own volition, attacking things savagely, including my party and any innocents in the vicinity." It's the job of the DM to make that seriousness stick. (Were I a sadistic DM, I'd have one of the PCs black out and end up infecting someone who will be a foe in the future).

 

[Rechan]

Well, there is no good reason why all undead should have those two anyway, and I suspect they won't in 4E.
Taking the con score away from undead created all kinds of minor annoying effects, like high level undead having very few HP. It's much more sensible to make them immune to tiring and the like and argue that con score for undead describes their toughness.
Fantasy sometimes has undead being fooled by illusion or enchantments, especially vampires, so I see no reason why they should be completely immune.

Well honestly if I was going to make something Undead available as a PC, I would do it like a Warforged. They are constructs but have a con score, can be effected by enchantments and illusions, etc etc, but are immune to poison, disease, and other sundry effects. With all the spells vs undead, and being able to be turned or rebuked (but not destroyed) by enemy clerics, that would balance it out IMHO.

But then, I want to play that. An undead is a fun and creepy option, and interesting roleplaying potential.

 

[Anthtriel]

Well honestly if I was going to make something Undead available as a PC, I would do it like a Warforged. They are constructs but have a con score, can be effected by enchantments and illusions, etc etc, but are immune to poison, disease, and other sundry effects. With all the spells vs undead, and being able to be turned or rebuked (but not destroyed) by enemy clerics, that would balance it out IMHO.

But then, I want to play that. An undead is a fun and creepy option, and interesting roleplaying potential.

Why exactly should undead and constructs have no con score and all kinds of abilities tied to them? What design advantages do you get from dropping an integral ability score, creating all kinds of border cases? What if you want to make an undead or a construct without these immunities?

If you want to make the vampiric character playable but not overpowered, so that PCs want to become vampires for flavor reasons and not mechanical ones, but don't suffer from it mechanicly either, then you definitely don't want to give out tons of abilities and immunities to your newly vampirised character. Otherwise he is either overpowered or needs all kinds of weaknesses that turn him into a liability for the party.

Also, the system either needs to be in a seperate book, or be as simple as possible. There is not much room for it apart from the rules that also apply to NPCs.