Why Was Maztica So Weak?

[Joshua Randall]

If anything in real life reads like a fantasy epic, it's Bernal Diaz's first-hand account of Cortes's campaign in Mexico.

I don't want to start a debate about whether Cortes should have done what he did, but I will say that he did it with ruthless panache. Burning his own ships to prevent his men from thinking about returning home? Wow. Climbing a volcano to obtain sulfur to make gunpowder? Bad-ass. Allying various hostile tribes to make up for his lack of an army? Devious.

Dang, now I want to re-read Bernal Diaz's book. Thank a lot, mmadsen!

 

[GVDammerung]

My thought was, in addition to those who have noted the unfamiliarity with MezoAmerican cultures and the weakness of Hishna and Pluma, that Maztica failed to dive deeply enough into the MezoAmerican cultures it was taking its inspiration from. I find the Maya, Olmec, Toltec and Aztec cultures fascinating to read about. Maztica was, IMO, dull, and would have benefited from greater "borrowing." I hope Maztica hasn't spoiled people on a MezoAmerican inspired setting/sourcebook but I think it may have.

 

[elrobey]

No reason you can't flip the Cortes story around and play the Aztec side of it.

In most campaigns the BBEG lives in a vast, daunting evil land, and the PCs generally spend their time infiltrating hostile territory. In a reverse Cortes campaign, the BBEG is some guy who just shows up on your shore one day with a handful of friends and all of a sudden your world is turned upside down. Awesome.

 

[Celebrim]

Basically, the designers of Maztica set out to create something that was very much like the real world version of the Americas in the 15th century.

This sounds like a pretty good idea until you consider how unlike the real world Europe of the 13th century you average fantasy campaign setting actually is. Even if the inspiration for consensus D&D is European Medieval the execution tends not to be Europe as it might have been, but rather Europe as it might have been if everything mythic was ordinary. The consensus D&D reality literally teems with mythic creatures and is awash with magic. So, by comparison, Maztica emphasis on only slightly changed history seems positively mundane and empty.

The correct translation of the Mayan/Toltec/Incan/Aztec/Hopi/Adena/Five Nations/Tlinget/Inuit/etc. cultural environment would have assumed not only that everything fantastic was real, but that everything fantastic was ubiquitous. Like the version of 'Europe' that rules traditional D&D, the cultures of a well considered American setting would be less insular, more prosperous, more travelled, would have an established and well known 'common' trade tongue, and would be allowed virtually any technology that didn't interfere with the feel of the setting (gunpowder in medieval Europe, iron in 'medieval' America). In addition to every myth of the native people's being true, it's worth making most every myth held by the Europeans about the native people's be true - there really would be lost cities of gold, lost tribes of Europeans ('Norse', 'Egyptians','Irish','Chinese',whatever), fountains of youth, etc. - and you should incorporate these 'secrets' in way that would fit them into the myths of the native cultures about themselves.

Plus, it's worth considering how the fantastic things from the rest of the world might have leaked into the new world, had those fantastic things existed, and how their presence might have impacted the myths of the New World. Real dragons almost certainly would live in the new world. In some cases might they not be viewed as Gods? Are their city states in Maztica ruled by dragons? Are their ice loving Harpies amongst the 'Inuit' people? And so forth.

 

[Von Ether]

No reason you can't flip the Cortes story around and play the Aztec side of it.

In most campaigns the BBEG lives in a vast, daunting evil land, and the PCs generally spend their time infiltrating hostile territory. In a reverse Cortes campaign, the BBEG is some guy who just shows up on your shore one day with a handful of friends and all of a sudden your world is turned upside down. Awesome.

I've done invasion scenarios before and generally players like them. You could take it a step further and do an occupation set up as well.

Come to think of it, most GM's tendency to have high powered leaders makes sense in an occupation campaign, the reason the bad guys are in charge is because the guy on top is a power in his own right. Sort of like a reverse dungeon.

 

[eyebeams]

Basically, the designers of Maztica set out to create something that was very much like the real world version of the Americas in the 15th century.

This sounds like a pretty good idea until you consider how unlike the real world Europe of the 13th century you average fantasy campaign setting actually is. Even if the inspiration for consensus D&D is European Medieval the execution tends not to be Europe as it might have been, but rather Europe as it might have been if everything mythic was ordinary. The consensus D&D reality literally teems with mythic creatures and is awash with magic. So, by comparison, Maztica emphasis on only slightly changed history seems positively mundane and empty.

The correct translation of the Mayan/Toltec/Incan/Aztec/Hopi/Adena/Five Nations/Tlinget/Inuit/etc. cultural environment would have assumed not only that everything fantastic was real, but that everything fantastic was ubiquitous. Like the version of 'Europe' that rules traditional D&D, the cultures of a well considered American setting would be less insular, more prosperous, more travelled, would have an established and well known 'common' trade tongue, and would be allowed virtually any technology that didn't interfere with the feel of the setting (gunpowder in medieval Europe, iron in 'medieval' America). In addition to every myth of the native people's being true, it's worth making most every myth held by the Europeans about the native people's be true - there really would be lost cities of gold, lost tribes of Europeans ('Norse', 'Egyptians','Irish','Chinese',whatever), fountains of youth, etc. - and you should incorporate these 'secrets' in way that would fit them into the myths of the native cultures about themselves.

Plus, it's worth considering how the fantastic things from the rest of the world might have leaked into the new world, had those fantastic things existed, and how their presence might have impacted the myths of the New World. Real dragons almost certainly would live in the new world. In some cases might they not be viewed as Gods? Are their city states in Maztica ruled by dragons? Are their ice loving Harpies amongst the 'Inuit' people? And so forth.

Well said.

 

[GVDammerung]

The consensus D&D reality literally teems with mythic creatures and is awash with magic. So, by comparison, Maztica emphasis on only slightly changed history seems positively mundane and empty.

The correct translation of the Mayan/Toltec/Incan/Aztec/Hopi/Adena/Five Nations/Tlinget/Inuit/etc. cultural environment would have assumed not only that everything fantastic was real, but that everything fantastic was ubiquitous. Like the version of 'Europe' that rules traditional D&D, the cultures of a well considered American setting would be less insular, more prosperous, more travelled, would have an established and well known 'common' trade tongue, and would be allowed virtually any technology that didn't interfere with the feel of the setting (gunpowder in medieval Europe, iron in 'medieval' America). In addition to every myth of the native people's being true, it's worth making most every myth held by the Europeans about the native people's be true - there really would be lost cities of gold, lost tribes of Europeans ('Norse', 'Egyptians','Irish','Chinese',whatever), fountains of youth, etc. - and you should incorporate these 'secrets' in way that would fit them into the myths of the native cultures about themselves.

Plus, it's worth considering how the fantastic things from the rest of the world might have leaked into the new world, had those fantastic things existed, and how their presence might have impacted the myths of the New World. Real dragons almost certainly would live in the new world. In some cases might they not be viewed as Gods? Are their city states in Maztica ruled by dragons? Are their ice loving Harpies amongst the 'Inuit' people? And so forth.

Very well said.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Basically, the designers of Maztica set out to create something that was very much like the real world version of the Americas in the 15th century.

This sounds like a pretty good idea until you consider how unlike the real world Europe of the 13th century you average fantasy campaign setting actually is. Even if the inspiration for consensus D&D is European Medieval the execution tends not to be Europe as it might have been, but rather Europe as it might have been if everything mythic was ordinary. The consensus D&D reality literally teems with mythic creatures and is awash with magic. So, by comparison, Maztica emphasis on only slightly changed history seems positively mundane and empty.

The correct translation of the Mayan/Toltec/Incan/Aztec/Hopi/Adena/Five Nations/Tlinget/Inuit/etc. cultural environment would have assumed not only that everything fantastic was real, but that everything fantastic was ubiquitous. Like the version of 'Europe' that rules traditional D&D, the cultures of a well considered American setting would be less insular, more prosperous, more travelled, would have an established and well known 'common' trade tongue, and would be allowed virtually any technology that didn't interfere with the feel of the setting (gunpowder in medieval Europe, iron in 'medieval' America). In addition to every myth of the native people's being true, it's worth making most every myth held by the Europeans about the native people's be true - there really would be lost cities of gold, lost tribes of Europeans ('Norse', 'Egyptians','Irish','Chinese',whatever), fountains of youth, etc. - and you should incorporate these 'secrets' in way that would fit them into the myths of the native cultures about themselves.

Plus, it's worth considering how the fantastic things from the rest of the world might have leaked into the new world, had those fantastic things existed, and how their presence might have impacted the myths of the New World. Real dragons almost certainly would live in the new world. In some cases might they not be viewed as Gods? Are their city states in Maztica ruled by dragons? Are their ice loving Harpies amongst the 'Inuit' people? And so forth.

Well said once again, this time with feeling!

I'd also say that this is why Al-Qadim and Kara Tur were much better adaptations; whatever else they were, they were both unambiguously 'D&D.'

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

No reason you can't flip the Cortes story around and play the Aztec side of it.

In most campaigns the BBEG lives in a vast, daunting evil land, and the PCs generally spend their time infiltrating hostile territory. In a reverse Cortes campaign, the BBEG is some guy who just shows up on your shore one day with a handful of friends and all of a sudden your world is turned upside down. Awesome.

Wouldn't this be everything that involves the Far Realm? Or the whole CoC game? Or did you only mean invasion and oppression by creatures without the psuedonatural template?
This is one of the many "themed" campaigns that I've always wanted to try, but now I'm thinking about new ways to do it. What if the evil-bad men from accross the sea want to conquer us because they think that we have whole cities of gold that we just leave untouched (have they even thought about what it would do to their economies if they did take such a thing back). The only way for us to defend against the invaders is to free "She Who Calls from the Beyond" from her prison so that she might unleash her nightmares upon the newcomers.

Celebrim: I now no longer need to say what others already have, so I guess I won't.

 

[WayneLigon]

It was never something that appealed to me. I looked at a couple of products for the line but there was never anything in there that reached out and grabbed me. i only vaguely remember it even existed, now.