Why were Action Points changed from 3e to 4e?

[Stalker0]

If you can add the +1d6 after the initial roll, the power is likely far stronger in 4e than it is in 3e.

In 4e because of the math, I can generally tell what numbers on the die will lead to a hit or a miss, so I have a very good instinct on when this +1d6 would need to be spent.

 

[Remathilis]

If you can add the +1d6 after the initial roll, the power is likely far stronger in 4e than it is in 3e.

In 4e because of the math, I can generally tell what numbers on the die will lead to a hit or a miss, so I have a very good instinct on when this +1d6 would need to be spent.

And that's the pro/con of it; PCs would rarely miss on encounter/daily powers. It would speed up combat, at the expense of something remsembling fairness.

AP was great in 3.5 that way because DC/AC was all over the map. Now, its much more consistant, making APs less "lets try something crazy and add some insurance" to "damn, I rolled average, lets make that higher so I know I hit".

 

[LostSoul]

In 4E, I would much prefer the extra action as opposed to a +1d6 bonus to a roll.

In a game I'm playing, I'm lamenting the fact that I already spent my AP - if I still had it, I'd use it for a Minor Action. (PbP by the way.)

 

[Mercule]

i have to say the change in action pnts was one of the biggest 4e deissapointments for me. in 3e games my group has pretty much always used the ua action point system and a side from the adding to a die roll, i've found the other options much more useful. in particular retaining spells and emulating feats. that stuff offered much more flexablity and really helps extend time betwen rests, ect.

Getting very few AP and only being able to spend them to get an extra attack is a big let down. When playing i had keep reminding myself i even had them, kinda takes the "action" out of "Action point", if you ask me.

This.

I never liked action points in 3ed. They were nearly useless. It is was rare that the d6 really helped. If the players always known what they needed to roll, then it would be more useful but in games I've been in players rarely know what they need so it is hard for them to jusge if it is a near miss or not.

We clearly did not play the same 3e. Action points were one of the best rules in UA, and the one considered most indespensible by my group.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

This.


We clearly did not play the same 3e. Action points were one of the best rules in UA, and the one considered most indespensible by my group.

Same here. I think the problem is, and i've seen this with some of the people i've gamed with, that not everyone became familiar enough with the rules and never looked past getting that + 1d6. Because of that the other options, such as taking an extra action, feat emulation, and the other uses get over looked.

Also i've never had too much trouble figuring the approximate ac of an opponant during game play. At least close enough to tell if the extra die could be worth while. Also in 3e they weren't just limited to being useful in combat like the deflaited 4e version.

Someone also pointed out the hoarding effect, and to tell the truth i have seen that happen, but again it seems like it's usually the same people that never get past the +d6 to the die roll thing.

I haven't had much 4e play, but i really don't think the featsfor humans that add to AP use are really all that worth it either. The concept is cool, but really when you boil it down you're getting a decient bonus, but your lucky if you get to use it more then once a session. I think i'd rather have weapon focus, it's a much smaller bonus but at least it's always there.

I also greatly dislike the rest back to one after a rest. If you are careful enough with your rescources to hit a milestone and get an extra AP you should get to use it, but in stead it seems like in most cases you are so worn down by then that you will probably choose to rest in stead of forgeing on just so you can make an extra attack in the next combat.

 

[Skallgrim]

Also, giving the +d6 (or whatever) bonus to an action with an AP steps on some of the paragon paths established. Rather than anyone and everyone getting more accurate with an AP, some heroes (such as Kensai) can reroll, while others do more damage, get better defenses, can also move, etc.

Not that I dislike another use of AP (I never played 3.x) but I can see why, given the specific uses for them in Paragon paths, the designers wanted to restrict the basic usage of Action Points to a specific single benefit which would not be duplicated in any Paragon path.

Also, our group (some of whom played 3.5, and some of whom did not) all love action points, and haven't even hit paragon play yet. They don't even consistently use them for an attack. Often they will use one after a big bold attack to take a Second Wind (so they attack, then heal, then get boosted defenses). Our wizard ran up to a gang of orcs, used Burning Hands on all of them to roast them, then used his action point to run back to the back of the party. Our rogue has used them to move and make a stealth check after an attack. I'd say we've used them just as much for a second move, or a Second Wind, as we've used them to attack.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I really like the change to Action Points. If they kept the old implementation in 4E, then it would basically be "use an Action Point to make sure your Daily Power hits", which reduces the distinctiveness and coolness of the Action Point itself. Instead, the new 4E Action Points are an additional potent resource that you get in addition to Daily Powers, so you have a bit more flexibility with how you use them. Taking an extra action is never a bad thing, especially with all the little benefits that a good Leader like the Warlord gives its allies whenever they do so.

I certainly don't mind the change from "you have the small number of Action Points per level that you will never use because you save them too much" to "you are going to get another Action Point right after this battle, so you may as well use it now".

 

[Jack99]

One of the conclusions reached in the grindspace threads lately was that an encounter will become a grind when players miss with their encounter and daily powers. Effective 4e play involves stacking bonuses so that these powerful attacks hit as often as possible to eat through the monster HP quickly.

In other words, the game runs more smoothly when players have as much control as possible on when their encounter/daily powers hit to avoid the effects of bad rolls which make combat a grind.

Given that, what was the 4e design rationale for changing the way that Action Points work from 3e (Eberron, Unearthed Arcana)?

By allowing an xd6 addition to a die roll, 3e Action Points allowed players to decide when they could turn a (near) miss into a hit.

4e action points allow players to control their economy of actions and to use more powers when they need to- but not alter the effects of bad rolls which lead to grindspace.

Has anyone heard the designers' reasons for the change in Action Points form 3e to 4e or have their own theory?

That's odd, my rogue gets a +12 to hit whenever he action points, and +4 to hit for the rest of his turn. I would say that this qualifies much better as "deciding to turn a (possible) miss into a hit"

Anyway. A majority of paragon paths gives bonuses to hit when you Action Point.

 

[Khairn]

I'm thinking that someone else must have thrown this out earlier, but I'll be making a House Rule that enables a player to spend an AP after he has missed with an Encounter or Daily power, so that he can recover that powers use. The player still missed the target, so he'll only be able to try the power again next turn.

I would think that this would help in a few ways

1-Maintains the integrity of the 1 AP per encounter rule
2-Helps to reduce the angst caused by missing with a Daily or Encounter Power
3-Helps to deal with the grinding of some 4E combats

I like the overall idea of enabling the player to do more with AP's, but maintaining 4E's balance can cause some challenges.

I'm also working on a HR for Milestones which are currently just to "gamey" for my taste, that might increase the # of AP's which could have an overall impact on their use but I haven't finalized anything yet.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm thinking that someone else must have thrown this out earlier, but I'll be making a House Rule that enables a player to spend an AP after he has missed with an Encounter or Daily power, so that he can recover that powers use. The player still missed the target, so he'll only be able to try the power again next turn.

I would think that this would help in a few ways

1-Maintains the integrity of the 1 AP per encounter rule
2-Helps to reduce the angst caused by missing with a Daily or Encounter Power
3-Helps to deal with the grinding of some 4E combats

I like the overall idea of enabling the player to do more with AP's, but maintaining 4E's balance can cause some challenges.

I'm also working on a HR for Milestones which are currently just to "gamey" for my taste, that might increase the # of AP's which could have an overall impact on their use but I haven't finalized anything yet.

Your house rule is "nice" for people that have encounter or daily powers that target only one creature. A Wizard focusing on area spells or a Fighter focusing on Close Bursts for maximum marking benefit (or with Reliable Dailies) will not use this too often.

I am not so much worry that it might be unbalanced (it might be, if you can recover your dailies, since a single extra action will rarely have the same "punch" of a daily), but the house rule doesn't "help" your goals for every class.

If you really want more encounter or daily powers used per encounter since you believe that's the only way to avoid grind, find rules for recharging powers, independent of hit successes. Maybe spending an action point is generally a way to recharge an encounter power (maybe only if you already expended all powers?)

I you want to have some kind of retry chance associated with action points, anything based on success or failure of attack rolls will be less useful for characters using multiple-target powers.