TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

[cbwjm]

It's so freaking slow. And not easy to grasp.

Here are the steps in order:

1. Determine if a side is surprised.
2. Determine distance between sides (It's random. Surprise! you roll d6+4 in 10s of feet for dungeons and yards for outdoors for it...)
3. If no one is surprised, then roll initiative. BUT, initiative goes in a certain order
   1. avoid engagement
   2. attempt to parley
   3. await action from other party
   4. discharge missiles or spells
   5. close the distance
   6. set weapons
   7. attack with weapons
   8. grapple

Initiative is each side (Players and DM) roll 1d6. Highest goes first. If you have surprise, then each participant goes individually based on DEX mods and which segment you go in is modified.

But it gets wonky.

• Creature has multiple attacks. If they win initiative, they go first and last in combat. If initiative is tied, then figure out who goes first and third, and who goes second and last. Creatures with one attack go in the middle. How do you figure it out? Roll initiative again for those participants alone.
• You cannot move and attack at the same time unless you charge, but you lose your DEX AC bonus or take a -1 penalty, whichever is greater by doing so. If you do charge, you don't automatically attack. The creature with the longer weapon attacks first.
• If you tied initiative, you go simultaneously UNLESS you're using weapons. The weapon with the slower speed factor goes first (you end up spending a lot of time comparing speed factors). And if your weapon is twice as much as your opponent or 5 segment slower, they get two attacks on you first. If the difference is 10 or greater, they get 2 attacks first, then you attack once, then they attack again.
• Then there are separate rules for weapon speed factor against someone who isn't attacking with a weapon, but casting as spell. You subtract the losing initiative from the speed factor of the weapon. If a spell takes 3 segments and you have a weapon with a speed factor of 5. so if you rolled a 3 on your initiative and lost, you subtract 3 from the speed factor of 5 for a 2, which is less than the spell's 3, so you go first.

the do it all over again in the next round!

Wow, okay. You've even laid it out clearly and there's still a lot of it I don't understand. Small wonder people didn't use it because that is confusing, alao time consuming to track all the small fiddly changes with weapons and weapon speeds.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Wow, okay. You've even laid it out clearly and there's still a lot of it I don't understand. Small wonder people didn't use it because that is confusing, alao time consuming to track all the small fiddly changes with weapons and weapon speeds.

You know how small the font was in the DMG right? Well, there’s several pages dedicated to initiative alone. That should tell you something.

I started in 1981. And not once did I ever meet a player who used those rules. Hence my original post

 

[Mannahnin]

Interesting, in that by the time 2e came out we'd long since made many of these changes as houserules. We dropped xp-for-treasure (the slow-down in level advancement is a huge benefit if one wants to run long persistent campaigns), we changed it so multi-class characters had to go by the most restrictive class when it came to armour allowed, spells gained on training after 1st were random, and death was at -10 with potential unconsciousness at 0.

That last was an optional rule in 2E, of course.

You don't need to drop treasure for XP to slow down advancement if you just give less treasure, of course.

1e Thieves weren't great at low levels but by high levels they really could rock pretty good; and they got to those high levels way faster than anyone else due to the variable-by-class advancement tables (which IMO are also a very good thing).

They did not. That's just a false statement. There are a few rare occasions at low levels when it's possible for them to be two levels ahead of a character with equal XP, but by medium levels they're basically never more than a level ahead, while having worse saves, HP, and attack bonuses compared to anyone but an M-U.

That spells are a) usually very effective and b) easy to interrupt is IMO a far better risk-reward take than the modern game has.

This is for my money one of the cooler things about the older editions. Of course, in practice most players seem to prefer less powerful magic they get to use more frequently, and which isn't so all-or-nothing. Especially when it comes to NPCs using magic on them, where save or suck/die has always been very unpopular.

All of those, with one exception, are relatively (and in a few cases, trivially) easy to fix by houserule. The one exception IME is Bards; I've tried redesigning them several times to start at 1st like any other class, and have seen other people's attempts at the same, and none of those designs have yet worked out. But I still don't want to drop the class outright, as there's massive potential in it.

I like the original Strategic Review version and the later Dragon #56 one pretty well. You might also like Stuart Marshall's Troubadour class from Footprints #19.

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Free fantasy roleplay material for advanced dungeons and dragons AD&D and lejendary adventures.

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https://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/FootprintsNo19.pdf

Any edition that has White Plume Mountain, Castle Amber, and the two EX-series ones as official modules, while also having some of the whacked-out monsters in the three MMs, is already leaning well toward gonzo. It doesn't need much help from us.

Castle Amber was for B/X. And White Plume was deliberately a gonzo showcase Lawrence Schick wrote with it all packed into one dungeon as part of his job application, to show off all sorts of creative ideas, and he was surprised they published it the way they did. But yeah, if you pick the right modules (like the Alice in Wonderland ones) AD&D can have a good amount of whimsy. Not much in the core books, but around the edges.

 

[Voadam]

I've heard that 1e initiative was bad, but how bad was it really? I think some comments I've heard were that it was unusable.

I posted a bunch of the PH text in another thread

Parts of it from the 1e PH are mostly fine.

There is a lot of wiggle room for the DM to throw in whatever consideration they want also.

I can't find any explanation of how spells are supposed to factor in normal round initiative (there is a clear explanation for the surprise round segments) or reverse engineer why a lot of spell timing things work out the way they do from the example combat. Why does 1 segment sleep not go off in the 1 segment of free action surprise round? 5 segment silence going off before later begun 7 segment prismatic spray makes sense but not sure how winning initiative would have interacted with a shorter spell. No idea why thief who looses initiative goes before the initiative winning illusionist's spell goes off.

Rate of fire for missile weapons is not explained but you can infer it works like multiple fighter attacks and that works. Or have them go simultaneously on normal initiative and that would work too.

Page 38:

Rate of fire is based on the turn (for table-top miniatures) or the melee round.

Page 43:

Casting Time shows the number of melee rounds, or segments of a melee round,
required to cast the spell. Remember that there are 10 segments to a melee round,
10 melee rounds to a turn. Some spells require additional time and preparation.

Page 104:

INITIATIVE
The initiative factor affects who can do what and when during the course of an
encounter of any sort. Surprise, already covered heretofore, obviates the need
for initiative checks, as the surprising party has complete freedom of action for
a time. However, surprise eventually wanes, and then, just as in other
circumstances, the relative weight of action must be determined. Initiative allows
one group, the party or the monster(s), to begin some course of action prior to
the other group.
Actions affected by initiative are many and include slamming a door, fleeing,
moving to grapple or melee, a call for a truce or surrender, firing wands,
discharging missiles, beginning a spell, and so on.
The initiative check is typically made with 2 six-sided dice, 1d6 for the party,
and another of a different size or color for the creatures encountered. This
check is made each round of play where first action is a factor. Because a
round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of
which side acts first. However, if one group is slowed or hasted, or one or more
members of the group are, the initiative will always go to the non-slowed or
hasted side. In most other cases, the group with the higher die score will always
act first. For effects of initiative in fighting, see COMBAT hereafter.

Page 104 again under the COMBAT section:

This form of fighting includes the use of hand-held weapons, natural weaponry
(claws, horns, teeth, etc.), grappling, and special or magical touch attacks, i.e.
poison, petrification, paralysis, energy level loss, etc. As with most other combat
forms, the first “blow” will be struck by the side gaining initiative during the
round. Surviving opponents will then be allowed their attacks. Note that haste
and slow spells will have the effects heretofore mentioned. Fighters able to strike
more than once during a round will attack once before opponents not able to do
so, regardless of initiative, but if fighter and fighter melee, initiative tells. Position
and weapon length will sometimes affect the order of attack in melee combat.

Page 105:

Example of Combat:
A party of 5 characters — a magic-user, a cleric, a thief, a human fighter,
and a dwarf fighter surprise an illusionist with 20 orcs. The opponents are 30’
distant, and the magic-user immediately begins casting a sleep spell [1 segment casting time]. The
cleric also prepares to cast a spell, silence, 15’ radius [5 segments casting time]. Meanwhile, the thief
darts to the rear of the party to attempt to hide in the shadows and attack
from behind when opportunity presents itself; the human fighter nocks an
arrow and shoots it at the illusionist; and the dwarf hurls an axe. The surprise
segment is over, and initiative is determined. The illusionist/orcs win initiative,
and while the former begins a spell of his own, the latter rush to attack,
hurling spears as they come. A spear hits the magic-user, so the sleep spell is
spoiled. The orcs are attacked by the fighters, the cleric casts his spell upon
the illusionist, and the magical silence both spoils his prismatic spray spell [7 segments casting time] and
enhances the chances for the thief’s attack, for he is successfully slinking and
sliding around in the shadows. Thus, after surprise and 1 melee round, the
party has inflicted 2 hits upon the illusionist, spoiled his spell attack, and
felled one orc and wounded another. They have taken 3 spear hits and had
one of their spell attacks ruined.
Initiative is now checked for the second round. The illusionist/orcs again win
initiative and attack first, 5 orcs going after each fighter to grapple, 6 rushing
the magic-user, and 3 heading for the cleric. The fighters are pulled down, as is
the magic-user, but the cleric avoids their grasp. The illusionist begins casting
another spell, one which requires no verbal component; he does not hear the
thief behind him. It is now the party’s turn in the round. The cleric smites 1 of
the onrushing orcs and kills it, and the thief stabs the illusionist from behind with
his sword, killing him; the fighters and magic-user are held fast by orcs, so they
can do nothing. Round 2 is over.
The initiative roll in the third round goes to the party. The cleric kills another
orc, while the thief rushes at the orcs holding the nearest fighter. It is now the
orcs’ turn, and as their leader is dead and they still face 2 powerful opponents,
they will check morale. It is probable that they will kill the pinned characters
with dagger thrusts if their morale does not break, or that they will release the
pinned characters and run away if their morale is bad.

Page 105:

First Strike:
The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity — rushes, retreats, feints,
parries, checks, and so on. Once during this period each combatant has the
opportunity to get a real blow in. Usually this is indicated by initiative, but
sometimes other circumstances will prevail. High level fighters get multiple blows
per round, so they will usually strike first and last in a round. Slowed creatures
always strike last. Hasted/speeded creatures strike first. A solid formation of
creatures with long weapons will strike opponents with shorter weapons first, a
rushing opponent will be struck first by a pole arm/spear set in its path. Your
DM will adjudicate such matters with common sense. When important single
combats occur, then dexterities and weapons factors will be used to determine
the order and number of strikes in a round.

 

[Voadam]

Here is a more direct one on the original texts in the 1e PH and DMg

1e initiative for the basics you look to the 1e PH page 104 and the 1e DMG page 62:

PH page 104:

INITIATIVE
The initiative factor affects who can do what and when during the course of an
encounter of any sort. Surprise, already covered heretofore, obviates the need
for initiative checks, as the surprising party has complete freedom of action for
a time. However, surprise eventually wanes, and then, just as in other
circumstances, the relative weight of action must be determined. Initiative allows
one group, the party or the monster(s), to begin some course of action prior to
the other group.
Actions affected by initiative are many and include slamming a door, fleeing,
moving to grapple or melee, a call for a truce or surrender, firing wands,
discharging missiles, beginning a spell, and so on.
The initiative check is typically made with 2 six-sided dice, 1d6 for the party,
and another of a different size or color for the creatures encountered. This
check is made each round of play where first action is a factor. Because a
round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of
which side acts first. However, if one group is slowed or hasted, or one or more
members of the group are, the initiative will always go to the non-slowed or
hasted side. In most other cases, the group with the higher die score will always
act first. For effects of initiative in fighting, see COMBAT hereafter.

PH page 105 adds:

First Strike:
The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity — rushes, retreats, feints,
parries, checks, and so on. Once during this period each combatant has the
opportunity to get a real blow in. Usually this is indicated by initiative, but
sometimes other circumstances will prevail. High level fighters get multiple blows
per round, so they will usually strike first and last in a round. Slowed creatures
always strike last. Hasted/speeded creatures strike first. A solid formation of
creatures with long weapons will strike opponents with shorter weapons first, a
rushing opponent will be struck first by a pole arm/spear set in its path. Your
DM will adjudicate such matters with common sense. When important single
combats occur, then dexterities and weapons factors will be used to determine
the order and number of strikes in a round.

1e DMG page 62:

Initiative:
Surprise gives initiative to the non- or less-surprised party. It is otherwise
determined when an encounter occurs and at the start of each combat round. It
indicates which of the two parties will act/react. Again, a d6 is rolled, and the
scores for the two parties are compared. (It is recommended that such initiative
rolls be made openly unless there is some reason to hide that of the
encountered monster party — such as special bonuses which would be
unknown to the player characters involved.) The higher of the two rolls is said to
possess the initiative for that melee round. (While it is not accurate to roll one
die for all individuals comprising each party, it is a convenient and necessary
expedient. Separate rolls could be made for each member of two small groups,
for instance, but what happens to this simple, brief determination if one party
consists of 9 characters and 6 henchmen and the other of 7 giants and 19 dire
wolves, let us say?) Possession of initiative allows the individuals to take action
or reaction as desired according to the foregoing list of alternatives, and as
detailed hereafter. The dexterity or speed of individuals or weapons is not
considered in the 1 minute round except as hereafter noted.
Initiative For Creatures With Multiple Attack Routines: When one or
more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines
twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants
are employed. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the
side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its
group who have this advantage. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative
roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD, which group strikes
SECOND and LAST. If one or both groups have members allowed only one
attack routine, it will always fall in the middle of the other attacks, the order
determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary. If one party has the
ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for
initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of
the round. Extrapolate for routines which occur four or more times in a round
by following the method above. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks
usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or weapons) for a character,
a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental damage assessed as it
occurs — the hug, for example). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines
twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to
three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter. Damage from
successful attacks is assessed when the “to hit” score is made and damage
determined, the creature so taking damage having to survive it in order to
follow its attack routine.
Ties: It will often occur that initiative determination results in a tie. This merely
indicates that each party has equal chances for acting and that attacks occur
simultaneously. In cases of equal initiative score, damage accrues to both
groups regardless of what is inflicted.

Also page 65 of the DMG has a note on spellcasting in melee

SPELL CASTING DURING MELEE
These functions are fully detailed in PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Their
commencement is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms,
but their culmination is subject to the stated casting time. Both commencement
and/or completion can occur simultaneously with missile discharge, magical
device attacks, and/or turning undead. Being struck by something during
casting will spoil the spell.

2. Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round
shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is
applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the
attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus,
all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.

Then there are a couple more DMG complications explained on page 66-67:

Melee At End of Charge: Initiative is NOT checked at the end of charge
movement. The opponent with the longer weapon/reach attacks first. Charging
creatures gain +2 on their “to hit” dice if they survive any non-charging or
charging opponent attacks which occur first. Weapon length and first strike are
detailed under Strike Blows.
Only one charge move can be made each turn; thus an interval of 9 rounds
must take place before a second charge movement can be made.
Set Weapons Against Possible Opponent Charge:
Setting weapons is simply a matter of bracing such piercing weapons as spears,
spiked pole arms, forks, glaives, etc. so as to have the butt of the shaft braced
against an unyielding surface. The effect of such a weapon upon a charging (or
leaping, pouncing, falling, or otherwise onrushing) opponent is to cause such
opponent to impale itself and take double normal damage if a hit is so scored.
Example: Character A sets her spear with its butt firmly braced upon the floor
just as a giant toad hops at her (attacking); if the spear impales the creature, it
will score double indicated damage (d8 × 2). Note that in this case initiative is
automatically given to the set spear as it will obviously take effect prior to any
attack routine of the toad, and that two dice are not rolled, but the result of the
d8 roll is multiplied by 2.
Strike Blows:
As previously stated, initiative is the key factor as to which side strikes blows
first each melee round. This is modified by creatures with multiple attack
routines, whether by natural or magical ability (such as haste). It is also
modified by weapon length when one opponent is charging (or otherwise
closing precipitously) into melee contact.
Simultaneous Initiative: When opponents in melee have tied for initiative,
blows (attack routines included) occur simultaneously, except when both
opponents are using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the
case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has
the lower speed factor will strike first. Thus, a blow from a fist occurs before a
blow with a dagger (1 to 2), a dagger before a short sword (2 to 3), a short
sword prior to a hammer (3 to 4), and so on.
Weapon Speed Factor: This number is indicative of the wieldiness of any
particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an
opponent, or how long it takes to recover and move it in its attack mode. A
pike, for example, is a 13, as it must be lowered, grasped, and then held/thrust
firmly. Such a weapon is not usable in dungeon settings, or anywhere else
without masses of other pikes to support it. In the latter case, an opponent
surviving the first attack from the bearer of the pike will likely be able to strike
several times before recovery of the pike for a second thrust. This is further
detailed below. A two-handed sword, with a 10 speed factor, likewise requires
a lengthy readying time and recovery period after its attack due to its size and
weight.
When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes first
in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to
multiple attacks. Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with that of
the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or
more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is
entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is
entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the
opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the
opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the
opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack.
Note that such speed factor considerations are not applicable when either
closing or charging to melee, but after an initial round of combat, or in cases
where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerations
are applicable.
Other Weapon Factor Determinants: The speed factor of a weapon
also determines when the weapon strikes during the course of the round with
respect to opponents who are engaged in activity other than striking blows.
Thus, suppose side A, which has achieved initiative (action) for the round, has
a magic-user engaged in casting a spell. Compare the speed factor of the
weapon with the number of segments which the spell will require to cast to
determine if the spell or the weapon will be cast/strike first, subtracting the
losing die roll on the initiative die roll from the weapon factor and treating
negative results as positive. Example: A sword with a factor of 5 (broad or
long) is being used by an opponent of a magic-user attempting to cast a
fireball spell (3 segment casting time). If the sword-wielding attacker was
represented by a losing initiative die roll of 1, the spell will be cast prior to
the sword’s blow. A 2 will indicate that the spell and the blow are completed
simultaneously. A 3-5 will indicate that the blow has a chance of striking (if a
successful “to hit” roll is made) before the spell is cast, arriving either as the
spell is begun or during the first segment of its casting. Suppose instead that
a dagger were being employed. It has a speed factor of only 2, so it will
strike prior to spell completion if the initiative roll which lost was 1-4 (the
adjusted segment indicator being 1, 0, 1, 2 respectively) and simultaneously
if the die score was a 5. If the weapon being employed was a two-handed
sword (or any other weapon with a speed factor of 10, or 9 for that matter)
there would be no chance for the reacting side to strike the spell caster prior
to completion of the fireball. Note that even though a spell takes but 1
segment to complete, this is 6 seconds, and during that period a reacting
attacker might be able to attack the magic-user or other spell caster prior to
actual completion of the spell! If combat is simultaneous, there is no
modification of the weapon speed factor.

There are also a few examples of combat with initiative.

1e PH page 105:

Example of Combat:
A party of 5 characters — a magic-user, a cleric, a thief, a human fighter,
and a dwarf fighter surprise an illusionist with 20 orcs. The opponents are 30’
distant, and the magic-user immediately begins casting a sleep spell. The
cleric also prepares to cast a spell, silence, 15’ radius. Meanwhile, the thief
darts to the rear of the party to attempt to hide in the shadows and attack
from behind when opportunity presents itself; the human fighter nocks an
arrow and shoots it at the illusionist; and the dwarf hurls an axe. The surprise
segment is over, and initiative is determined. The illusionist/orcs win initiative,
and while the former begins a spell of his own, the latter rush to attack,
hurling spears as they come. A spear hits the magic-user, so the sleep spell is
spoiled. The orcs are attacked by the fighters, the cleric casts his spell upon
the illusionist, and the magical silence both spoils his prismatic spray spell and
enhances the chances for the thief’s attack, for he is successfully slinking and
sliding around in the shadows. Thus, after surprise and 1 melee round, the
party has inflicted 2 hits upon the illusionist, spoiled his spell attack, and
felled one orc and wounded another. They have taken 3 spear hits and had
one of their spell attacks ruined.
Initiative is now checked for the second round. The illusionist/orcs again win
initiative and attack first, 5 orcs going after each fighter to grapple, 6 rushing
the magic-user, and 3 heading for the cleric. The fighters are pulled down, as is
the magic-user, but the cleric avoids their grasp. The illusionist begins casting
another spell, one which requires no verbal component; he does not hear the
thief behind him. It is now the party’s turn in the round. The cleric smites 1 of
the onrushing orcs and kills it, and the thief stabs the illusionist from behind with
his sword, killing him; the fighters and magic-user are held fast by orcs, so they
can do nothing. Round 2 is over.
The initiative roll in the third round goes to the party. The cleric kills another
orc, while the thief rushes at the orcs holding the nearest fighter. It is now the
orcs’ turn, and as their leader is dead and they still face 2 powerful opponents,
they will check morale. It is probable that they will kill the pinned characters
with dagger thrusts if their morale does not break, or that they will release the
pinned characters and run away if their morale is bad.

DMG page 71-72:

Example of Melee:
Party A (player characters) is composed of Aggro the Axe, a 4th level fighter;
Abner, a 5th level magic-user; Arkayn, a 4th level cleric; and Arlanni, a 2nd
level thief. They are hastening down a dungeon corridor in order to avoid an
encounter with a large group of goblins, whose territory they are now leaving.
It is a ten-foot wide corridor and they are moving with the cleric, fighter, and
thief in a line in front, followed closely by the magic-user. Suddenly they round
a bend and confront party B, who are earnestly engaged in squabbling over
some treasure. Party B is composed of Gutboy Barrelhouse, a 6th level dwarf
fighter; Balto, a 1st level monk; Blastum, a 4th level magic-user; and Barjin, a
4th/5th level half-elf fighter/magic-user.
The first thing the DM must do is determine if either party is surprised. He rolls a
d6 for party B (where the players can see it, since there are no secret modifiers)
and a 2 comes up. The leader for the players rolls and gets a 4 for party A.
Party B is surprised (since they rolled a 2), and will be inactive for 2 segments.
Next the DM checks distance, and finds that the parties are only 10’ apart —
sufficiently near to close and strike.
Party A immediately recognizes party B as a group of “evil marauders” they
were warned against and moves to attack. First, Arlanni the thief, who had her
sling ready (as the player had stated previous to the encounter), fires a shot at
Blastum, who is obviously a magic-user. A sling bullet gains +3 “to hit” vs. no
armor. Arlanni would usually need an 11 to hit, but now needs only an 8. She
rolls a 5, and misses.
Aggro the fighter rushes forward to attack the nearest opponent, who happens
to be Balto, the monk. Balto is wearing no armor, so Aggro needs a base 8 to
hit Balto. However, Aggro is using a +1 hand axe, and furthermore an axe is
+1 to hit vs. no armor, so Aggro’s adjusted amount needed to hit is only 6 (or,
alternately, the cumulative +2 could be added to whatever he rolls to improve
his chances of rolling an 8 or better). Aggro rolls a 14 and hits Balto, but only
1 point of damage is rolled, plus a 1 point bonus from the magic axe (2 points
total), and Balto can take 4.
Meanwhile, Abner and Arkayn have been preparing short (first level) spells. The
cleric shouts a command of “surrender!” at Gutboy Barrelhouse, but Gutboy is
6th level and thus gets a saving throw. Furthermore, he is a dwarf with a
constitution of 16, and thus saves at +4. He therefore needs a 10 or better to
save (instead of a 14). He rolls a 17 and saves easily. Unfortunately, he is
almost simultaneously hit by two magic missiles from Abner, the magic-user.
Against these there is no save, and Gutboy suffers 6 points of damage (from a
possible 4-10).
As party B is surprised for 2 segments, party A has a chance to hit in each
segment as if they were full rounds (this does not apply to spell use, of course).
In the second segment, Arlanni chooses to set down her crossbow and
unsheathe her sword. Aggro would normally get another chance to hit Balto,
who would be inactive for another segment, but Balto’s dexterity allows him a
+1 reaction adjustment, which means that he personally will be surprised for
one less segment than the rest of his party. So this segment he is up and on his
guard, and Aggro does not get another hit attempt this round. Arkayn the cleric
readies his mace as Abner steps back and begins to unroll a scroll for use next
round.
Now initiative dice are rolled, and party A’s score is lower, so party B gets to
react to the assault. Balto attacks Aggro (who is in AC 2) with his staff. He
needs a base 18 to hit, and the –7 armor class adjustment for sword vs. plate
mail and shield makes this a 20. He (the DM) rolls a 19 — almost, but not
quite! Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin the fighter/magic-user both attack
Arkayn. That cleric’s AC is only 5. Gutboy has +1 to hit due to strength, and his
hammer’s armor class adjustment vs. scale mail and shield is +1, so he needs a
9 or better to hit (11 before bonuses). He rolls a 12 and hits for 5 points of
damage (including 1 point of bonus damage from strength). Barjin, with a
sword, needs a 13 or better to hit Arkayn. He rolls a 13 exactly, and hits for 6
more points of damage. Arkayn is starting to have second thoughts about this
whole affair.
Meanwhile, Blastum has been preparing a shocking grasp spell, and now he
steps forward and touches (rolls a successful “to hit” die score) Arlanni the thief,
delivering 10 points of damage (1-8 + 4). There is no saving throw: Arlanni has
only 8 hit points, and dies.
On the left, Aggro again attacks Balto with his axe. He rolls a 12 and hits him
for 5 points. Balto only had two points left, so he is dead.
Arkayn chooses to attempt to hit Gutboy Barrelhouse. The dwarf is clad in splint
mail, but he is carrying a +2 shield, so his effective armor class is 1 (though his
AC type is 3). Arkayn needs a base 17 to hit AC 1, but using a mace vs. AC
type 3 gives him a +1 armor class adjustment, so he really only needs a 16 or
better. He rolls a 7 and misses.
During this time Abner has been reading a web spell from the scroll, and now it
takes effect. The web stretches from wall to wall and entangles Gutboy, Barjin,
Blastum (who was beginning spell preparations, though now they’re ruined and
the spell is lost), and the unfortunate Arkayn, who was too near not to get
caught. All attempt saving throws, but only Gutboy Barrelhouse makes his, and
thus is only partially entangled. However, even his 17 strength will not enable
him to escape the web in time to avoid being subsequently subdued or killed by
Aggro. The melee is effectively over: Arkayn can be helped out of the web by
his friends, while Barjin and Blastum are basically helpless to avoid whatever
the player characters have in mind concerning them.
As you can see, a large number of things can happen in each round of
melee, yet this whole fight took only two minutes of game time. Some melees
will last far longer. It may seem at first as if there is a tremendous number of
confusing variables that modify the action, but you’ll be surprised at how
quickly you’ll be able to conduct a complicated melee and routinely cover
every point. An experienced DM can do it with only an occasional reference
to the tables (though it is not recommended that you try this — wait until it
comes naturally). The main thing to remember is to do everything in an
orderly, step-by-step fashion. Deal with your players’ actions and reactions
one by one instead of all at once, or you will never be able to keep track of
what round it is, and who’s doing what when.

 

[Sacrosanct]

On a somewhat related note, wanna know something I always thought funny? And by funny I mean a bit odd, in a cognitive dissonance sort of way. 1e's rules were clearly pulled from early wargaming rules. Just going over these initiative rules and it's pretty obvious they make more sense when you're approaching combat as a tabletop wargame. Detailed rules for movement tracking, flanking, charging, combat order, etc.

And wanna know who the biggest critics of 4e were because it was too much of a wargame rather than RPG? Old school fans like me Saying things like, "I don't like 4e because combat is way too slow. Bring back theater of the mind!"

It's a bitter pill for me to swallow, being an old school fan, but the reality is, "1e was built that way too, just no one ever played that way so you never noticed."

 

[James Gasik]

On a somewhat related note, wanna know something I always thought funny? And by funny I mean a bit odd, in a cognitive dissonance sort of way. 1e's rules were clearly pulled from early wargaming rules. Just going over these initiative rules and it's pretty obvious they make more sense when you're approaching combat as a tabletop wargame. Detailed rules for movement tracking, flanking, charging, combat order, etc.

And wanna know who the biggest critics of 4e were because it was too much of a wargame rather than RPG? Old school fans like me Saying things like, "I don't like 4e because combat is way too slow. Bring back theater of the mind!"

It's a bitter pill for me to swallow, being an old school fan, but the reality is, "1e was built that way too, just no one ever played that way so you never noticed."

I remember when 3e came out, and some of my players were griping about movement rates being converted into 5' squares, saying it was "arbitrary" that a Human had a 30' speed.

"So did you guys ever wonder why Human speed in 2e is listed as 12"? Let's see. If we assume 1" is a 5' square, then being able to move 12 5' squares is....hey 60'! And remember, in 2e, you can move up to half your speed and make melee attacks (PHB page 96)! It's almost as if it's...exactly the same, wow! Oh wait, no it's not, Dwarves move faster now, 20' instead of the 15' you'd get from 6". I guess we can nerf Dwarves if that'd make you feel happier about 3e."

 

[Doctor Futurity]

I was very much a 2nd edition AD&D fan. I have fond memories of puzzling out 1E, then referring to B/X to solve mysteries such as initiative and turn actions/order. I survived the attack charts when Dragon Magazine produced a Combat Wheel which my group used religiously to figure out attack rolls. Then around 84ish I pretty much had abandoned AD&D for Tunnels & Trolls, Runequest, Dragonquest and Palladium Fantasy. I didn't pick AD&D up again until my new college group convinced me to do so in late 89.

What I realize now is that the problem with AD&D 2nd edition was not related to the rules at all; it's superior in design and more clearly written in every conceivable way. I retconned in the demons & devils, and restated them for the 2E approach. No issues there. The problem with AD&D 2E (in retrospect) was that I quickly came to see all of the brown cover Player's Handbook Resource books as critical components of the game: the Fighter's book had all of the much better proficiency rules for weapons and combat styles, for example. The Priest's book had all of the different domains. The wizard's book expanded the schools of magic, the rogues had their own book too that was somehow less useful overall. The kits (precursors to prestige classes or today's subclassses) became essential to my game table, and as such we needed every one of what ended up being like 16 books, plus the other blue cover DM resources and also the lovely green cover historical resources. That ended up being a lot of books.

Another issue with AD&D 2E is recollecting can be difficult not just because the game itself was really distributed over dozens of resource books, but also because the first wave of monstrous compendiums were all three-ring-bound format, which means that the only feasible way to collect them now is to try and find the later re-releases that gave up the loose leaf format for normal books. Because of the way that monsters were distributed, it means you can't really get the optimal collection of monster manuals with just the core hardcover that came out later on; you still need the Planescape Appendix for the baatezu and tanar'ri, and probably half a dozen other compendiums to collect all your preferred beasts. It gets messy.

So the top complaint I have about AD&D 2E is that it is, unfortunately, very messy and strewn with rules over dozens of tomes that I definitely considered "critical" back in the day, and while I could totally run 2E as-is with just the core three books today, it wouldn't feel at all like the 2E I ran from 1989 to 2000. AD&D 1E, by contrast, at least only really requires maybe 8 books at the most to get to "fully playable." That said....I just can't do 1E, either, because my window of nostalgia for it was tinged with a severe amount of general confusion; I would need the B/X tomes (preferable Otus) to run that edition the way I actually did when I was around age 10-13 before other better designed systems yanked my attention away from it.

(EDIT: don't even get me started on the Player's Option books! Their best trait was you could use them instead of all the brown books. Their worst trait was an incredibly bizarre, ill conceived point buy system that for the time seemed weird but innovative. Today, when I look at the Player's Option books all they make me do is appreciate what 3rd edition accomplished even more).

 

[James Gasik]

As far as the 1e Thief goes, I've made (too many) posts discussing how terrible it can be if you hew closely to RAW. Gary is particularly harsh when discussing the limits of Thieving abilities in the DMG.

However, I do have a much cooler alternative, the Scout from Dragon 161! It mixes the "non-thieving" abilities of the Thief with some of the survival tricks of the Barbarian- good stuff!

 

[Deset Gled]

On a somewhat related note, wanna know something I always thought funny? And by funny I mean a bit odd, in a cognitive dissonance sort of way. 1e's rules were clearly pulled from early wargaming rules. Just going over these initiative rules and it's pretty obvious they make more sense when you're approaching combat as a tabletop wargame. Detailed rules for movement tracking, flanking, charging, combat order, etc.

And wanna know who the biggest critics of 4e were because it was too much of a wargame rather than RPG? Old school fans like me Saying things like, "I don't like 4e because combat is way too slow. Bring back theater of the mind!"

It's a bitter pill for me to swallow, being an old school fan, but the reality is, "1e was built that way too, just no one ever played that way so you never noticed."

I feel like it makes more sense if you think in terms of relative change, not the fiducial.

1e was a set of rules that started with wargaming, but generally moved away from it. 4e was a set of rules that started with decades of roleplay, and moved back towards wargaming. If any of the 1e folks actually wanted to return back in the direction of wargaming, isn't it a lot more likely they simply would have gone back to actual war games rather that stick around in the RPG space for 30 years?