Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors

[Wik]

Medium creatures have a 5-foot *fighting space*, i.e. the ideal ammount of space to be effective in combat.

I see 3 squares adjacent to the door to the red creature. The 6 PCs could squeeze it up (2 per square) and all 6 would be able to fight the red creature. Sure, they'd incur -4 attacks and -4 AC, and each square of movement would cost 2 squares, but they'd all be able to participate. Hell, if the two yellow PCs occupied the top square and both used Aid Another to give the main PC fighter a bonus to hit, they'd be negating the PC fighter's attack penalty.

Another option is to leave the two main fighting PCs unobstructed in the middle and bottom squares, move the top-left green PC into the top-right green PC's square (thus squeezing) and let the two yellow PCs squeeze into the top-left square, where they get line-of-sight and line-of-effect to the red creature. If they're spellcasters, that'd be enough to let them participate.

Sorry, don't see any bad design here.

Except that you can't put two people in the same square, in the RAW. Hence, the argument.

I can understand Merric's argument, but I think part of the problem is that TinH was designed for four PCs (and, even in the example he's given, four PCs can fight the baddie), whereas Merric's group numbers six.

For a larger group, I can see there being problems with TinH, but I think it ran perfectly fine with a four person group.

Really, I think this is a great early warning for all groups who have a larger pool of adventurers - changes have to be made.

 

[Klaus]

Except that you can't put two people in the same square, in the RAW. Hence, the argument.

What?!

Two people CAN occupy the same square, in the RAW:

Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

:\

 

[mearls]

I deal with this problem by the simple strategem of not using dungeons.

I sort of do this, then I stick the encounters I design into a dungeon. For instance, I just ran a fight last night with the PCs trying to cross a bridge across a chasm while goblins fired crossbow bolts at them from the side. It was pretty fun (especially when a dragon swooped by and dropped cause fear at the fighter just because it could; the characters happily sucked down AoO's to jump over the goblin's barricade and get out of the dragon's way.)

Space is cool, because it opens up more tactical options and challenges. The monsters can come at the party from multiple directions. The party gets spread out. AoEs can clip one or two monsters unless the caster is willing to hit a PC. It's good stuff.

I've had a lot of success drawing a standard dungeon, but then grouping up two or three rooms into one "encounter" with the fight swirling through the area. It's interesting because approaching encounters this way makes you think of encounters as more than the PCs lining up on one side, the monsters on the other.

OTOH, cramped spaces are cool because they make it hard to bring everything to bear. I've had some success combining these two approachs, particularly when I reverse it. For instance, the monsters might attack from an open area while the PCs are in cramped quarters. Alternatively, the PCs have a few cramped passages to choose from, all leading to the same spot, letting you split up the party.

In any case, too much of anything is pretty lame.

 

[MerricB]

What?!

Two people CAN occupy the same square, in the RAW:
:\

Klaus, have another look at your quote:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

Sorry, RAW don't allow it.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

OTOH, cramped spaces are cool because they make it hard to bring everything to bear. I've had some success combining these two approachs, particularly when I reverse it. For instance, the monsters might attack from an open area while the PCs are in cramped quarters. Alternatively, the PCs have a few cramped passages to choose from, all leading to the same spot, letting you split up the party.

Definitely. I love having encounters in both cramped quarters and big open spaces... and a mix of terrain makes things *really* interesting.

It's funny - I keep coming back to Three Faces of Evil to tell my most interesting combat stories: the high point of the *entire* AoW campaign happened when the Ebon Aspect chased the PCs into the narrow corridors of the Hextor temple. It was squeezing, but it was still pretty scary, especially as they weren't full strength. Then the barbarian turned and threw a tanglefoot bag at it. It was entangled, squeezing, and the massive penalties allowed the barbarian to take it down singlehanded.

Mix of terrain types = fun.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

I find it very interesting that people bring up all sorts of options that aren't available to 1st or second level characters. Multiple alchemical items for example - at first level you certainly aren't going to be hauling around more than one or two per PC at most. Smokesticks are 20 gp a pop. Not something that the party is going to have a lot of.

As far as Tucker's Kobolds go, let's not forget that that scenario is for challenging much higher level PC's with smaller creatures. A completely different animal than what's going on here.

It's not a case of not liking one particular challenge, it's a case of not liking an entire dungeon of one particular challenge. This is the finale of the module and should be fun for everyone. People sitting in the back twiddling their thumbs are not having a whole lot of fun.

While adding in terrain challenges is a great way to up the difficulty of an encounter, I'm not so sure that that's a great idea in such a low level adventure. OTOH, when I do finally run this, I'm going to add some verticallity to this map - slopes and such - to make a different sort of challenge.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Err... no. It doesn't say "at the end of your turn", it says "ends its movement". You move into the space... and then find you're in an illegal space, and you're moved back before you can attack.

Cheers!

Oops, my bad...

This is why I like EnWorld.... its the best place to jump out and show how badly I mangle the rules to this game

 

[Klaus]

Klaus, have another look at your quote:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

Sorry, RAW don't allow it.

Cheers!

But if an ally squeezes as to occupy a half-sqaure, the other half-square isn't occupied, and the two characters won't be in an occupied space.

There's a Teamwork Benefit (I forget if it's in DMGII or PHBII) where cavalry chargers must squeeze their mounts' spaces to 5x10.

I maintain my reading of the Squeezing rules. If only some WotC designer were in this thread to clarify the issue...

 

[el-remmen]

The reason I don't use the squeezing rules and came up with my own (which I posted previously) is b/c I see squeezing as something used in situations where there is no give to situation - like a narrow tunnel, or under low cliff overhang - while I imagine that two people in the same box would be able to give each other bit of give and take for fighting.

That is why my rules for three people in a box are in more restrictive.

 

[MerricB]

But if an ally squeezes as to occupy a half-sqaure, the other half-square isn't occupied, and the two characters won't be in an occupied space.

There is no such thing as a "half-square", Klaus.