Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors

[Mark CMG]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a tactical challenge makes the game less fun. If the entire campaign consisted of this, I might ask for some variety, but if I was invading a kobold warren (or a thieves' den!), I would certainly expect cramped quarters and all the challenges that come with them.

That's my first impression, as well. I think MerricB's group was just getting frustrated. This thread will help them be better equipped to handle such tactics next time, though.

 

[James Jacobs]

The theory between having rooms connected by long hallways, in the case of "There is no Honor," is that several of the rooms began their lives as the basements of unconnected buildings. Over the course of many decades/centuries of thiefly operations, these basements got connected by tunnels, turning a bunch of seperate basements into one big tangled complex. It's a guild of thieves, and the theory behind the tangled tunnels is just that; to make invading the place tough.

I do agree that I should have made the last room where the BBEG lived a lot bigger though.

 

[wakedown]

For those who are curious I posted my rules for this in the house rules forum: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=198746

I use almost these exact same rules for squeezing characters into 5ft squares. It's pretty common in my group these days for 2 warrior types to squeeze into a single square facing a monster and take the -2 to hit. With their sick to hit bonuses, combined with spells that augment to hit bonuses (even at level 2), the -2 is quickly mitigated to get 2 folks abreast in a 5' wide doorway.

Not that I'd want 9 out of 10 encounters like this... but the group seems to enjoy the challenge that comes with these tough fights when they pop up every now and then.

And yes, the big guy in the doorway will usually not blindly follow them into the previous room and lose his tactical advantage. This is when my players never cease to impress me in showing off their bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, knight's challenge, etc abilities to lure them nonetheless. Or at level 2 using 'cause fear' to push the door blocker with low will saves out of the way.

Depending on the pacing of the adventure and the variety thus far, this is the DMs job to turn the "fiercely loyal henchman" into the "abused and tired of it henchman" and just add a new monster to the end room or quick level to the BBEG to compensate

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I agree with Merric.

One or two challenging fights from narrow/cramped spaces are fine. But when it becomes an entire adventure where only a couple of people are able to participate in the combat there is an issue.

I am not familier with "There is no Honor" so I can't comment on that particular situation as a whole. The one area that he posted looks annoying. If there is only one or two fights in situations like that I would be fine. If the entire adventure was the same setup (for 1st level adventurers as I take it) I would become very annoyed by the end of it.

It reminds me of a sequence from the old computer game Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday. The party needs to crawl through an elevator shaft. The party is then randomly attacked by baddies, but because of the cramped area only two of the six characters can participate in the fights. The elevator shaft is too long and the encounters happen too often for the sequence. Sure, you can heal between fights but by the end of it I'm just praying to get to the other end of the elevator shaft. It was an interesting way to change the battle setup a few times. But by the sixth time I was bored and wanted to move on to the next sequence.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Wasn't there a thread just like this a while back? I remember most people being against the 5' corridor, but I might be wrong. I tried to search for it, but I came up with nothing.

 

[Gez]

Realism? I understand it, but this is a game. We're here to have fun.

Merric, have you ever been in Europe? 5-ft.-wide corridors ain't realism. Realism is 2-ft.-wide corridors.

I remember, long ago, reading an article wrote by Monte Cook (IIRC) about his surprise, as a game designer, upon discovering what a real medieval castle looked like.

Your mission is to go into the passages and eliminate what you find there. For some reason, the enemy is intelligent enough not to follow you out and lose its advantage.

How does that make my players dumb?

In that they don't take advantage from the enemy not following them to cook something up. Like smoking them out.

What DOES annoy me is how draconian the game is about how many folk can stand in a single five-foot square at once. It's stupid to think that two humans can't fight back to back in a single five-foot square. Perhaps they'll take some penalties, but it just smacks of "we don't want to encourage miniatures standing in the same square so let's not allow it." Lame.

As seen from the other side of the Atlantic, it was a source of snide comments about rampant obesity in the USA, honestly. As far as I'm concerned, the "one person per square" only applies for combat situations where people need room to dodge, lunge, duck, twist and otherwise manoeuver without bumping into their friend or sticking their sword in the wrong dude.

We need more dungeons with some 3' corridors or 2' crawl spaces. All over the place. I'm getting really tired of everybody and their brother using reach weapons and two handed weapons.

Those tunnels in Vietnam are going to look spacious compared to my next dungeon. Better pack a dagger, cause you're going to need it.

Exactly! Which brings my next point:

My initial post wasn't about needing everything being big and roomy - it was about everything being small and cramped.

5-ft. isn't cramped. A cramped location would put penalties for the attackers! Again, see medieval castle conception, with minutes details like the rotation sense of stairways (meant to hamper right-winged swordsmen climbing the stairs, and thus making the stairs a defensive position).

TinH is neither roomy nor cramped. It's goldilocks.

I'm fine with house ruling when necessary.

However, if you need to house rule to play an Official D&D adventure, then I reckon there's something wrong with the adventure.

You're forgetting one half of the equation. It could be the rules that are wrong.

I deal with this problem by the simple strategem of not using dungeons.

That, of course, is an option that shouldn't be forgotten. If players get tired of dungeons, get them outside!

oreover, in MerricB's example, the monster would get a "free" attack in an attack of opportunity on the PC in the small room when he withdraws.

Not if he has cover. The tank stays right in front of the monster, providing cover for everyone to move away. Then he makes a five-foot-step to reach cover, after a full attack round. Next round, he moves away.

 

[DM_Jeff]

I read this whole thread. Consider it a sell. I was him-hawing about what campaign to run next. I beleive it shall be "Savage Tide" (that's where this offender is from, right?).

I smile with evil DM glee at this design and I happen to know my players will be challenged hard, have to think smart, and have respect for the bad guys, something that's hard to alway get nowadays. Besides, I don't deal in 5-foot corridors or tight spaces very often, if at all. I think it's about time!

-DM Jeff

 

[grimslade]

I hope Merric group never runs into a Tucker's Kobolds scenario. Warrens of interconnecting corridors filled with traps and hit-and-run ambushes. The horror! The thought of those scaly demon dogs still sends shivers down my spine.

This dungeon is not the whole adventure. It is maybe 1/4 of the adventure. It is a Thieve's Guild hideout. 5' corridors give it character and make the dungeon interesting and unique. My group had a blast running through it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[Wik]

I hope Merric group never runs into a Tucker's Kobolds scenario. Warrens of interconnecting corridors filled with traps and hit-and-run ambushes. The horror! The thought of those scaly demon dogs still sends shivers down my spine.

This dungeon is not the whole adventure. It is maybe 1/4 of the adventure. It is a Thieve's Guild hideout. 5' corridors give it character and make the dungeon interesting and unique. My group had a blast running through it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Yeah, we had a ball running this bit, too. I really played up on the water running down the sides of the tunnel walls, the impromptu nature of the buildings, and the distant sounds echoiing around the group. I also really loved the "Defensive" mentality of the rogues, as they flip up tables and take cover behind them, firing crossbows (and rifles, in my campaign) at the PCs.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The theory between having rooms connected by long hallways, in the case of "There is no Honor," is that several of the rooms began their lives as the basements of unconnected buildings. Over the course of many decades/centuries of thiefly operations, these basements got connected by tunnels, turning a bunch of seperate basements into one big tangled complex. It's a guild of thieves, and the theory behind the tangled tunnels is just that; to make invading the place tough.

This seems to me a completely plausible explanation for the tunnels/hallways.

I remember, long ago, reading an article wrote by Monte Cook (IIRC) about his surprise, as a game designer, upon discovering what a real medieval castle looked like.

I lived in France for 5 years as a kid - I've known this for thirty years... D&D scale has always been a little off - people thinking of 30x30 rooms as "small" when in fact its pretty huge.

It's odd - it seems we've had a lot of threads revolving around "reality" from a physical point of view - whether dungeon construction or geography...