Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
You could just solve it all by everyone in your party being a gnome with swarmfighting feat. 
Two fighters per square and all the puns you can handle!!!
Seriously though, I prefer to have the setting realistically sized... and sometimes it's even smaller than 5' corridors depending on the residents.
In a campaign I was in we actually had some players trying to overrun other players to "get to the front". Made for some interesting interparty conflict. All in all though I found it was really good from a tactics point of view as it had us really work at planning ahead, setting up fall back postions... and such. I like it myself.
Two fighters per square and all the puns you can handle!!!Seriously though, I prefer to have the setting realistically sized... and sometimes it's even smaller than 5' corridors depending on the residents.
In a campaign I was in we actually had some players trying to overrun other players to "get to the front". Made for some interesting interparty conflict. All in all though I found it was really good from a tactics point of view as it had us really work at planning ahead, setting up fall back postions... and such. I like it myself.
JDJblatherings
First Post
I see nothing wrong with 5' corridors. They DO provide choke points and limit mobility during combat. To me as DM that's a good thing.
Sometimes players are frustrated by tight quarters but party members can move back and forth over the course of rounds while fighting in tight spaces. the characters in front need not stay there and keep those in the rear away from the fight for the duration of the combat. Marching order is an important part of tactics and strategy that players should learn and this is made clearer by limited vision and mobility.
Sometimes players are frustrated by tight quarters but party members can move back and forth over the course of rounds while fighting in tight spaces. the characters in front need not stay there and keep those in the rear away from the fight for the duration of the combat. Marching order is an important part of tactics and strategy that players should learn and this is made clearer by limited vision and mobility.
Festivus
First Post
MerricB said:
This is one of the worst encounters.
The (red) creature has a +8 modifier to avoid being Bull Rushed. The green positions are where PCs can stand and see the monster. The yellow positions are where two PCs must stand... unable to even see the monster and thus participate.
Cheers!
Ahh yes, that encounter. My group elected to come back later to deal with it.
When they did, it was "reeled back" to the wall making the encounter much easier for them.
what I would put in front of my door if I was a BBEG.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
MerricB said:
Even so, attacking at a penalty is more likely to succeed than not attacking at all - and against rogues, who normally have pretty poor ACs (at low levels I'm guess AC 15 or 16), fighters would still have a reasonable chance.
This might be a good place for more battlefield control tactics - Bull Rush you already mentioned; tripping, overruning/trampling might also be good tactics.
I don't have a problem with this as a general rule - in general I have much more of a problem with unrealistically designed dungeons and castles than with locations that limit the PC's - but I do always try to vary my environments when crafting encounters. I like places with open areas and choke points, something that gives the opportunity to do a variety of things and try a variety of tactics.
My last couple of set pieces battles have taken place in a warehouse and a mansion - the warehouse had wide open floors, but 5' wide catwalks up above for firing down; the PC's could move freely on the ground, but were limited up in the catwalks, having to fight one at a time. In the mansion, there were open rooms from 20x 20 to 25x 40, and narrow halls (5 ft or 10 ft) in other places. People were rushing around through rooms to get behind the enemy - they were there for a dinner party gone bad, so they got a guided tour of the buidling first, which allowed them the freedom of knowing what doors led to what rooms (for the most part!). Both scenarios were immensely successful, from my point of view.
Woas
First Post
How about a smokestick, thunderstone, flashpowder (are those in RAW? I'm an Arcana Evolved player too and I know they are in AE...), or tanglefoot bag? I mean, they're in a ninja/rogue hideout right? Those items should be around as treasure in over abundance.
Basically I agree with you Merric that variety is the spice of life. Or in this case, fun. I don't know what adventure this one is specfically or have ever ran it myself and would probably be upset if every encounter was in a 5' corridor. But as for 5' corridors in general - I'm cool with them. They have their places.
Basically I agree with you Merric that variety is the spice of life. Or in this case, fun. I don't know what adventure this one is specfically or have ever ran it myself and would probably be upset if every encounter was in a 5' corridor. But as for 5' corridors in general - I'm cool with them. They have their places.
tzor
First Post
MerricB said:This is the section of the dungeon that really irritates me, btw:
Especially the 2x3 room with the 1x1 room above it; the monster began right outside the door when it was opened. The PCs entered from the west, and only 3 had LOS to the room.
Cheers!
When I first glanced at your first post, especially after you mentioned “realism” I really felt like I needed to rant a bit. Then I realized my real rant is the absurd notion that dungeons with 5’ hallways are “realistic.” Then I saw your excellent example which is really the “WTF” of dungeon design.
OK, I'll admit it. I come from the primitive days when the game was “let’s see how many rooms we can cram into our graph paper" and every wall was paper thin. That wasn’t “realistic.” Neither are, on the other hand, long 5’ hallways for the sake of 5’ long hallways. The example you cite, where the hallway serves no useful architectural function whatsoever.
I do like dungeon maps to be realistic, but I really want them to be reasonable. I’ve seen real maps of dungeons, and tombs. They tend to be quite dull. They don’t have 5’ hallways just for the sake of having 5’ hallways. (One reasonable exception is when you have to travel a very long way – that is a real tunnel – or when you actually have a large space that has been subdivided into a number of rooms with a common hall in the middle.)
Clearly there are reasons why you would want to limit line of sight and line of fire especially when plot considerations are made. Even then one needs something that is somewhat realistic and within the context of the standard party adventure reasonable from a combat perspective. That example is clearly neither.
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
For those who are curious I posted my rules for this in the house rules forum: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=198746
MerricB said:
This is one of the worst encounters.
The (red) creature has a +8 modifier to avoid being Bull Rushed. The green positions are where PCs can stand and see the monster. The yellow positions are where two PCs must stand... unable to even see the monster and thus participate.
Cheers!
You're right, it's terrible. I hate when a dungeon has a tactical challenge. All encounters should occur on an open plain with convenient cover.
If that's not possible, here are some things that you might try.
a.) Rotate fighters. Remember that cover prevents AoOs.
b.) Repeatedly attempt bull rushes. An enlarged barbarian may help.
c.) Use ranged attacs from the west-most green dot
d.) Squeeze into a space with an ally and take a penalty to hit (potentially a fun-inducing house rule)
e.) Use visibility-limiting effects (obscuring mist) and try to sneak past
f.) Break down the wall.
g.) Complain to designers about 5' corridors and tactical challenges.
h.) Leave the dungeon and go home.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a tactical challenge makes the game less fun. If the entire campaign consisted of this, I might ask for some variety, but if I was invading a kobold warren (or a thieves' den!), I would certainly expect cramped quarters and all the challenges that come with them.
