Why you shouldn't use 5 ft corridors

[Gothmog]

Or with the RAW?

The ability of two people to fight within a 5 x 5 square, and the inability to have more than 9 people fighting in a 15 x 15 room, is a rules problem, not an adventure problem, IMHO.

I am with those others who have said they have no problem with 5-foot corridors. Not all encounters are supposed to be easy; creatures should be able to use tactics suited to them (and have appropriate lairs).

To me, this is a lot more fun than contrived encounters designed to allow dogpiles.

RC

I agree- there is nothing at all wrong with 5 foot corridors, or even 3 foot corridors. Most buildings aren't so spacious that five foot corridors are feasible. What IS wrong is the D&D RAW- its simply silly to think its impossible to fit 2 people in a 5 x5 foot space. True, they might not have maximum mobility, and maybe take penalties to hit and AC, but its still possible. This isn't bad dungeon design, its bad game design.

Plus encounters in corridors like this, especially in a theives guild, should be the norm. Most theives guilds are located underground or in buildings specially remodeled to accomodate the guild. Why would they build spacious rooms and corridors to fight hand to hand (something rogues stink at) when they could make choke points, murder holes (whch could be sneak attacked through), and traps for use in case they ever are attacked? THAT is smart on the part of the thieves guild- hack n' slashing it to the death with a heavily armed party is suicide.

I've run games where PCs have tried to attack goblins in their warrens, only to find 4' high corridors that are 2 or 3 feet wide- all of a sudden two-handed weapon users have to find another tactic, and only dwarves, gnomes, and halflings can function reasonably well. It turns a lackluster goblin slaughter into a scary, claustrophobic fight for survival against ambushes and traps. My players still remember that adventure with dread and talk about it to this day- situations out of the norm make for the truly memorable gaming, especially if some sort of hardship has to be faced that makes the PCs consider some other means of solving the problem other than kill, loot, rinse, repeat.

I understand the need for fun, but sacrificing some difficulties (in this case cramped space) for ease of play to prevent player frustration is WAY too much metagaming for me. Fun can be had in almost any situation if your players are willing to break out of their rigid metagame conceptions of how the game should be to find it.

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

The best use of 5' passages I've ever seen was by Mike Mearls in "Three Faces of Evil". It wasn't not the entire dungeon, although a major section of it, and in this maze-like section - with secret doors as well - the party was never quite sure what direction an attack would come from.

Because there were so *many* passages, the fact that they were 5' didn't matter, the party could all participate.

Small sections of dungeon with 5' passages are also fine. I think players needing to use different tactics is a really, really good idea.

However, when we're talking about a large dungeon that lasts several hours to play through, things start getting more serious. I understand the arguments about realism and how D&D's 5' scale is tiresome, but you've got to work with what the game is, not what you'd like it to be.

Merric, you're metagaming on so many levels I don't know where to start correcting you.

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

In conclusion I think I'm with Hong in avoiding dungeons altogether

So you and Hong prefer to play "Dragons 3.5"?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

That's illegal by the RAW. You can't end your move in the same square as another creature unless it's helpless, or there's a major size difference.

Even if it wasn't you still can't move, attack then move again without Spring Attack or a similar feat.

Its in how you read it.
<SRD> "Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer."

Admittably this is under 'accidently ending your turn in an illegal space'... but...

"Joe, I plan on moving past Fred into the room.. what, theres a BBEG there who could take an AoO on me if I keep moving? Heck no! I stop and attack him!"

Based on this you move into the space and attack, then end your turn. Since you can't end your turn in the same space as another figure you move back to the last legal position.

Sure, its not exactly spelled out in the RAW, but I think its an okay interpretation or, if you prefer, HR... much more fun than sitting in back of the 2.5' halfing ranger who is somehow blocking the entire 5' wide x 15' high corredor...


Still doesn't resolve the poor dungeon design tho

 

[NilesB]

You're right, it's terrible. I hate when a dungeon has a tactical challenge. All encounters should occur on an open plain with convenient cover.

Constraining options until tactical decision making is imposible is the very opposite of a tactical challenge.

 

[MerricB]

I'd like to make this very, very clear:

One or two encounters in an adventure in cramped quarters are fine by me.

I love tactical challenges. It's when an entire session is given over to one tactical challenge that it becomes extremely dull.

 

[frankthedm]

b.) Repeatedly attempt bull rushes. An enlarged barbarian may help.

Not in those tight of quarters.

f.) Break down the wall.

I too am curious about how strong that section of wall is. In case of bottlenecking, break the bottle.

Also, grappling the red guy would help too. A PC going into his space lets another PC get up to the front.

 

[MerricB]

Its in how you read it.
<SRD> "Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer."

Admittably this is under 'accidently ending your turn in an illegal space'... but...

"Joe, I plan on moving past Fred into the room.. what, theres a BBEG there who could take an AoO on me if I keep moving? Heck no! I stop and attack him!"

Based on this you move into the space and attack, then end your turn. Since you can't end your turn in the same space as another figure you move back to the last legal position.

Err... no. It doesn't say "at the end of your turn", it says "ends its movement". You move into the space... and then find you're in an illegal space, and you're moved back before you can attack.

Cheers!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Merric, have you ever been in Europe? 5-ft.-wide corridors ain't realism. Realism is 2-ft.-wide corridors.

Yes, which is one of many reasons why realism and good gameplay are often at odds.

I remember, long ago, reading an article wrote by Monte Cook (IIRC) about his surprise, as a game designer, upon discovering what a real medieval castle looked like.

I also remember Monte's solution: rather than settle for bad gameplay, he made a civilization of giants.

In that they don't take advantage from the enemy not following them to cook something up. Like smoking them out.

:sigh: Yes, if you were annoyed by an adventure, you must not have been playing smart.

As seen from the other side of the Atlantic, it was a source of snide comments about rampant obesity in the USA, honestly. As far as I'm concerned, the "one person per square" only applies for combat situations where people need room to dodge, lunge, duck, twist and otherwise manoeuver without bumping into their friend or sticking their sword in the wrong dude.

Yeah, the 'space' occupied by a creature is pretty clearly stated to be its FIGHTING space. Which is also why the 10 ft. square horses, ogres, etc. make more sense than their 3.0 predecessors, to say nothing of playing better.

Exactly! Which brings my next point:

5-ft. isn't cramped. A cramped location would put penalties for the attackers! Again, see medieval castle conception, with minutes details like the rotation sense of stairways (meant to hamper right-winged swordsmen climbing the stairs, and thus making the stairs a defensive position).

TinH is neither roomy nor cramped. It's goldilocks.

And it's STILL bad gameplay.

Imagine how godawful a REALISTIC dungeon would play.

You're forgetting one half of the equation. It could be the rules that are wrong.

The rules are designed to provide interesting tactical challenges - not to model a realistic castle.

That, of course, is an option that shouldn't be forgotten. If players get tired of dungeons, get them outside!

Agreed.

Not if he has cover. The tank stays right in front of the monster, providing cover for everyone to move away. Then he makes a five-foot-step to reach cover, after a full attack round. Next round, he moves away.

That option works, but it doesn't solve the problem - especially in light of it being only one of many such problems Merric's group encountered in the adventure.

 

[Klaus]

This is one of the worst encounters.

The (red) creature has a +8 modifier to avoid being Bull Rushed. The green positions are where PCs can stand and see the monster. The yellow positions are where two PCs must stand... unable to even see the monster and thus participate.

Cheers!

Medium creatures have a 5-foot *fighting space*, i.e. the ideal ammount of space to be effective in combat.

I see 3 squares adjacent to the door to the red creature. The 6 PCs could squeeze it up (2 per square) and all 6 would be able to fight the red creature. Sure, they'd incur -4 attacks and -4 AC, and each square of movement would cost 2 squares, but they'd all be able to participate. Hell, if the two yellow PCs occupied the top square and both used Aid Another to give the main PC fighter a bonus to hit, they'd be negating the PC fighter's attack penalty.

Another option is to leave the two main fighting PCs unobstructed in the middle and bottom squares, move the top-left green PC into the top-right green PC's square (thus squeezing) and let the two yellow PCs squeeze into the top-left square, where they get line-of-sight and line-of-effect to the red creature. If they're spellcasters, that'd be enough to let them participate.

Sorry, don't see any bad design here.