Critical Role Wildemount has new subraces and reprints a ton of others

gyor

Legend
Actually, when they added tieflings in 4E, they took out gnomes.

And they put them back in 5e, while keeping Dragonborn and Tiefling, net increase in PHB races. Its not some law of physics that they have to take a race out if they add one in. Its not even a rule of thumb, its just something Paul made up out of thin air.
 

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gyor

Legend
Ah, see, I never played Pathfinder, and only know a bit about Critical Role, so sorry for my mistakes! :)

WotC did change some elements, shortened her name, changed her holy symbol, get rid of the Angel element of the Goddess (she started off as an Angel) and replaced it with Humaniod Pheonix, no references to events on Galaron. This really just broad themes and a vague simularities to the Pathfinder Goddess really.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Its not just Wildemount, its the broader trend, if a race keeps popping up in books, multiple settings its a sign that its a core race. Goblins were a core race for most MtG settings, so now that they are getting the D&D treatment it makes sense to add them to the PHB, especially since they are playable in Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Exandia, and other more traditional D&D settings. I'd also add Aasimar and Genasi to the PHB.

No new races or subraces or classes will ever be "added" to the Player's Handbook. I understand your argument on why they should be. I don't find it compelling enough, WOTC definitely does not find it compelling enough, and it's just not going to happen. Probably best to talk about other ways to make them "more official" or "more accessible" than to continue to suggest they be "added to" the PHB.
 

gyor

Legend
No new races or subraces or classes will ever be "added" to the Player's Handbook. I understand your argument on why they should be. I don't find it compelling enough, WOTC definitely does not find it compelling enough, and it's just not going to happen. Probably best to talk about other ways to make them "more official" or "more accessible" than to continue to suggest they be "added to" the PHB.

No, you out right wrong.

They have added and subtracted classes and races from the PHB throughout varous editions. 4e added the Warlord, 5e took it out. 5e added the Drow to the PHB for the first time ever. One addition removed monks others added them back in. 4e added Warlocks, and 5e keep them. 4e took out Half Orcs and Gnomes while adding Dragonborn and Tieflings and Eladarin. 5e readded Half Orcs and Gnomes, kept Tieflings and Dragonborn, and pushed a prototype of Eladarin to the DMG (along with Aasimar), only to release finished versions later.

You have no idea what WotC will or won't do, and that you don't find my reasoning compelling enough matters not at all, given that not only is it not up to you, but you made no counter arguement to it.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
No, you out right wrong.

They have added and subtracted classes and races from the PHB throughout varous editions. 4e added the Warlord, 5e took it out. 5e added the Drow to the PHB for the first time ever. One addition removed monks others added them back in. 4e added Warlocks, and 5e keep them. 4e took out Half Orcs and Gnomes while adding Dragonborn and Tieflings and Eladarin. 5e readded Half Orcs and Gnomes, kept Tieflings and Dragonborn, and pushed a prototype of Eladarin to the DMG (along with Aasimar), only to release finished versions later.

You have no idea what WotC will or won't do, and that you don't find my reasoning compelling enough matters not at all, given that not only is it not up to you, but you made no counter arguement to it.

5e didn't "add" anything. It's not based on 4e. They started with X number of races in the PHB and have never added since.

The fact you're citing the very edition they've said was the example for why they will never do that again tells me this conversation isn't going anywhere. They have in fact said they will not do that - they will never again make people feel like their PHB is outdated and needs to be purchased again to stay up to date. They gave more reasons too, and they were good reasons, and this has been debated to death years ago. I don't feel like getting back into it, but I don't think you will find your idea of "adding races to the PHB" will resonate with a lot of people.
 

dave2008

Legend
@gyor and @Mistwell , it seems you are talking past each other. Gyor is, I believe, talking about adding them to a future 6e and Mistwell is saying they are not going to add them to the 5e PHB. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. You can both be correct.

Now I have heard Gyor suggest an updated 5e PHB with more races, but that is not going to happen.
 

gyor

Legend
5e didn't "add" anything. It's not based on 4e. They started with X number of races in the PHB and have never added since.

The fact you're citing the very edition they've said was the example for why they will never do that again tells me this conversation isn't going anywhere. They have in fact said they will not do that - they will never again make people feel like their PHB is outdated and needs to be purchased again to stay up to date. They gave more reasons too, and they were good reasons, and this has been debated to death years ago. I don't feel like getting back into it, but I don't think you will find your idea of "adding races to the PHB" will resonate with a lot of people.

I pointed to multiple editions, not just 4e. And I'm talking most about future editions or a possible special collexctors edition maybe, not the regular PHB. And by the time the next edition comes around you don't even know if it will be the same people or not, or what design philosophy they will have.
 

gyor

Legend
@gyor and @Mistwell , it seems you are talking past each other. Gyor is, I believe, talking about adding them to a future 6e and Mistwell is saying they are not going to add them to the 5e PHB. Those are not mutually exclusive statements. You can both be correct.

Now I have heard Gyor suggest an updated 5e PHB with more races, but that is not going to happen.

Not exactly an updated PHB, more like the combined fixed version of Tyranny of Dragons they released last year, but for the PHB + other content. And you could be right maybe they won't do this product or maybe I'm right and they will, but either way it won't be any time soon.

Anyways I'm mostly talking about the next edition amyways, anything else is all hypothetical.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I pointed to multiple editions, not just 4e. And I'm talking most about future editions or a possible special collexctors edition maybe, not the regular PHB. And by the time the next edition comes around you don't even know if it will be the same people or not, or what design philosophy they will have.

Oh it looked like you meant add to the 5e PHB. Not a future edition. Sure, of course a future edition might have different races than this edition.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
I doubt they'll do another combined fixed PHB type reprint anytime soon due to the special edition covers released Holiday 2018, but if 5e lasts well through the 20s I could see something coming out in summer 2024, 10th anniversary of the edition.

I too was mostly talking about 6e, which I expect we'll be into by 2030, just due to the nature of how many lessons will have been learned over the years of 5e, and the need to update enough that it's worth printing a new edition. WotC have said they want to stick with 5e as long as possible rather than break the player base, though. I imagine any 6e would be more like how 2e was somewhat compatible with 1e AD&D, or like how Pathfinder is somewhat compatible with 3.5e D&D.
 

teitan

Legend
I would also point out that 2024 is also the 50th anniversary of D&D making it the perfect time to refresh the PHB ala revised 2e by adding some of the fixes and more popular subclasses etc to the core book with ample lead time so people know they are coming.
 

Reynard

Legend
I would also point out that 2024 is also the 50th anniversary of D&D making it the perfect time to refresh the PHB ala revised 2e by adding some of the fixes and more popular subclasses etc to the core book with ample lead time so people know they are coming.
Four years is a long time away. People need to remember that while D&D is having a moment, it is just a moment and very likely will fade back to "normal" levels, which will mean WotC (or whoever owns it) will want to shakje things up again. None of us know how long streaming is going to be a thing, or if some other game is going to grab the streamers' attention. Imagine of the Critical Role crew decided to engage in a 2 year long campaign using a different rule set. Would the Critters follow them to that game and leave D&D fallow? Or what if the success of the new animated series means fewer and fewer streaming games happen as the cast members and Mercer spend more and more time doing different kinds of work. Will their fans still be playing D&D 6 months after the last Twitch stream?
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Four years is a long time away. People need to remember that while D&D is having a moment, it is just a moment and very likely will fade back to "normal" levels, which will mean WotC (or whoever owns it) will want to shakje things up again. None of us know how long streaming is going to be a thing, or if some other game is going to grab the streamers' attention. Imagine of the Critical Role crew decided to engage in a 2 year long campaign using a different rule set. Would the Critters follow them to that game and leave D&D fallow? Or what if the success of the new animated series means fewer and fewer streaming games happen as the cast members and Mercer spend more and more time doing different kinds of work. Will their fans still be playing D&D 6 months after the last Twitch stream?

I strongly disagree with this. D&D's moment to me is perfectly aligned with the rise of millenials/gen Z who are the driving force behind properties like Marvel, and are at the same time becoming more skeptical of social media and looking for closer friendships.

I'll agree that D&D is unlikely to maintain it's exponential growth, but I seriously doubt it will return to the much lower play levels that were pre-5e.
 

Lem23

Adventurer
I would also point out that 2024 is also the 50th anniversary of D&D making it the perfect time to refresh the PHB ala revised 2e by adding some of the fixes and more popular subclasses etc to the core book with ample lead time so people know they are coming.

Or release 6th ed as a 50th anniversary edition.
 

Reynard

Legend
I strongly disagree with this. D&D's moment to me is perfectly aligned with the rise of millenials/gen Z who are the driving force behind properties like Marvel, and are at the same time becoming more skeptical of social media and looking for closer friendships.

I'll agree that D&D is unlikely to maintain it's exponential growth, but I seriously doubt it will return to the much lower play levels that were pre-5e.
Pretty much every time D&D has seen a boost, those people either fall out of the hobby within a few years or move on to other games. Millenials that discovered RPGs through D&D are going to go through the same life development points that caused a lot of Gen Xers to have to put it away for a decade or more, and those that stay are going to be just as likely to want to explore other avenues in the hobby as Gen Xers were. It is a difference of scale, not kind.
 


Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Pretty much every time D&D has seen a boost, those people either fall out of the hobby within a few years or move on to other games. Millenials that discovered RPGs through D&D are going to go through the same life development points that caused a lot of Gen Xers to have to put it away for a decade or more, and those that stay are going to be just as likely to want to explore other avenues in the hobby as Gen Xers were. It is a difference of scale, not kind.

I'm not disagreeing that this could be a peak time for D&D; it very well could be. But it's not going to fall back to pre-5e levels either, as D&D seems to have reached a level where it would need an absolute crash in play to fall back to where it was.
 

Reynard

Legend
I'm not disagreeing that this could be a peak time for D&D; it very well could be. But it's not going to fall back to pre-5e levels either, as D&D seems to have reached a level where it would need an absolute crash in play to fall back to where it was.
Online play will help it stick, I think, and I agree that the millennial "board game culture" will likely help hold on to a greater number of those players. But I do think we are in a bubble and expecting it to never burst is a little dangerous.
 

gyor

Legend
Online play will help it stick, I think, and I agree that the millennial "board game culture" will likely help hold on to a greater number of those players. But I do think we are in a bubble and expecting it to never burst is a little dangerous.

Even bubbles can last years before they burst and by the time this one bursts, another generation will be on the cusp of taking over the mantle.
 

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