WildShape questions...

Pielorinho said:

Trizzlwizzl: Masters of the Wild contains revised rules for wildshaping that don't reference polymorph other (or self). Wildshaping now actually makes sense. These are the rules I'm talking about.

Hey, thanks for pointing that out. After reading the revised rules, though, I don't see how it's any different than already established in the core rule book except for: 1) there's more material that specifically applies to druids in wild shape and 2) there's no mention of attack routines (except to say that the druid acquires the natural abilities of the creature, including natural weapons)... so really with regards to the topic at hand, the new rules in MotW are even more ambiguous.

Where do you get the notion that druids in wild shape can pick the method of attack? I honestly can't find it anywhere in here... [flip, flip]
 

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kreynolds, I didn't think you'd miss something like that -- sorry if I sounded snarky. But still, keep in mind that a druid5/shifter3 is an eighth-level character; his 3rd level of shaper is his 8th character level. He doesn't get a feat at that level. As he said, he only has four feats to play with. He's chosen three of the four; the fourth one must be taken at first or third level.

Trizzlwizzl, I don't have my book here, but I'm pretty sure it makes it clear (either through text or through examples) that you get an animal's attack routine (claw/claw/bite or whatever). The ability to forgo multiple attacks in favor of a single iterative attack is the part I'm not sure about; it's how it worked in pre-MOTW official rules.

Note that druids can take the multiattack and multidex feats; the description of these feats don't make any sense for a druid to take unless claw/claw/bite routines are normally available.

Daniel
 
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Pielorinho said:
kreynolds, I didn't think you'd miss something like that -- sorry if I sounded snarky. But still, keep in mind that a druid5/shifter3 is an eighth-level character; his 3rd level of shaper is his 8th character level. He doesn't get a feat at that level.

AHA! That's what I was missing! DOH! Thanks Daniel.
 

Pielorinho said:
Trizzlwizzl, I don't have my book here, but I'm pretty sure it makes it clear (either through text or through examples) that you get an animal's attack routine (claw/claw/bite or whatever). The ability to forgo multiple attacks in favor of a single iterative attack is the part I'm not sure about; it's how it worked in pre-MOTW official rules.

According to what source? This is the first I've ever heard of it.
 

1) How many attacks a Wildshaped Druid can do in his new form? Do they depend from his BAB or not?

The natural attack routine. On the WotC site, look under web supplements. There are *two* MotW supplements (I think). One (the druid's grove) details a druid named Thyme, whose stats as wild shaped creatures are shown. It clearly shows that she gains the animal's basic attack routine. It's unfortunate that this must be found from this example, and wasn't actually stated in the rules. Note that you also gain Weapon Finesse if you turn into a creature with a higher Dex than Str score (eg a cat).

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?=dnd/we/we20020203a If the link doesn't work, just cut and paste; there shouldn't be a space after the ? but I couldn't fit it on one line.

2) Can he Wildshape into a Shapechanger type eventually?

It depends on whether you've become a shifter. (I think someone answered this better already.)

3) Assuming four Feats (3 from lvls 1, 3 and 6, and 1 for Human race), and considering I'll surely take Alertness, Endurance (PrC reqs.) and Natural Spells, what should I take as 3rd lvl Feat?

Do you mean before you become a shifter?

BTW I don't have MotW. Can you use Nature's Favor if you're wildshaped, or does it only work on actual "Animals"?
 

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
1) How many attacks a Wildshaped Druid can do in his new form? Do they depend from his BAB or not?

2) Can he Wildshape into a Shapechanger type eventually?

3) Assuming four Feats (3 from lvls 1, 3 and 6, and 1 for Human race), and considering I'll surely take Alertness, Endurance (PrC reqs.) and Natural Spells, what should I take as 3rd lvl Feat?

BTW I don't have MotW. Can you use Nature's Favor if you're wildshaped, or does it only work on actual "Animals"?

Not sure on #1, but belive you just get the natural attacks. I don't believe high HD animals get iteritive attacks, but then again if they had class levels...

#2: Shapechanger isn't on the Shifter list as far as types of creatures they can change into.

#3: Everyone's different. For my shifter I chose Multiattack, Blindsight (a must have), and Leadership.

Nature's Favor states that you grant the target "animal" a +1 luck bonus on attack/damage for every two caster levels. So it would only work if you could somehow change your type to Animal.

Dwarmaj
 

Pielorinho said:

Trizzlwizzl, I don't have my book here, but I'm pretty sure it makes it clear (either through text or through examples) that you get an animal's attack routine (claw/claw/bite or whatever). The ability to forgo multiple attacks in favor of a single iterative attack is the part I'm not sure about; it's how it worked in pre-MOTW official rules.

It's clear in the description of polymorph other, but the text on Wild Shape in MotW doesn't say anything definitive about 'attack routines' (at least not in my copy); it does, however, mention 'natural attacks'. Also, I don't know what you're talking about when you mention the 'pre-MotW' rule about switching out natural attacks for anything else... the 'pre-MotW' rule for wild shape was, in fact, the description for polymorph other. Are you sure you're not mixing in a house rule? I do that sometimes.

Whatever; we both agree that wild shaped druids get the natural attacks of whatever form they morphed into, right? If not, we should (it being the rule and all :D )
 

TrizzlWizzl said:
Also, I don't know what you're talking about when you mention the 'pre-MotW' rule about switching out natural attacks for anything else... the 'pre-MotW' rule for wild shape was, in fact, the description for polymorph other. Are you sure you're not mixing in a house rule? I do that sometimes.

I'm pretty sure that polymorphed wizards don't gain any advantageous ability to make attacks with multiple natural weapons; if they choose to attack with multiple natural weapons, they're required to use the rules for two-handed fighting (thereby suffering big penalties on each attack). However, they don't give up iterative attacks, so their best bet is usually to choose one natural weapon and make iterative attacks with it. This is especially true for polymorphed rangers. I remember reading a sage advice to this effect; is this what others remember?

I'll write more on this when I get home. WHen MOTW was first released, there was a sneak peek on the WOTC site explaining the new wildshape rules; I can't find it now, though, and the new wildshape rules aren't part of the SRD, so I can't back up my claims until I get back to my copy of MOTW.

Daniel
 

Some relevant text from WotC

The druid has tailored her feat selection to help her
make better use of her wild shapes. Multiattack gives her
an effective bonus on secondary attacks while she is in
animal form (–2 instead of –5 penalty), and Natural
Spell lets her cast spells while in animal form.

Thyme, female half-elf Drd12: CR 12; Medium-size
humanoid (elf ); HD 12d8+12; hp 66; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.;
AC 20 (touch 13, flat-footed 18); Atk +10/+5 melee
(1d6+1/18–20, +1 opposable scimitar*) or +12/+7 ranged
(1d6, masterwork sling); SQ Animal companions (2
badgers, 2 hawks, tiger, wolf ), half-elf traits, nature
sense, resist nature’s lure, trackless step, venom immunity,
wild shape (Tiny, Small, Medium-size, Large, or dire
animal 5/day), woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +9,
Ref +6, Will +12; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 18,
Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +10, Concentration
+6, Handle Animal +7, Heal +11, Intuit Direction +9,
Knowledge (nature) +16, Listen +5, Profession (herbalist)
+9, Ride (horse) +4, Scry +6, Search +2, Spellcraft
+6, Spot +5, Wilderness Lore +19; Blindsight, Create
Infusion, Multiattack, Natural Spell, Track.
Animal Companions: Thyme has two badgers (hp 5,
6), two hawks (hp 5 ,4), a tiger (hp 48), and a wolf (hp
11) as animal companions.
Wild Shape (Sp): Thyme can change into a Tiny, Small,
Medium-size, Large, or dire animal and back again 5
times per day. She may adopt only one form per use of
this ability. With each use, she regains hit points as if
she has rested for a day. She does not risk the standard
penalty for being disoriented while in her wild shape.
She gains all the creature’s natural and extraordinary
abilities when she does so.


Thyme (brown bear form), female half-elf Drd12:
CR 12; Large humanoid (elf ); HD 12d8+12; hp 66; Init
+1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 15 (touch 10, flat-footed 14); Atk +16
melee (1d8+8, 2 claws) and +14 melee (2d8+4, bite)
; or
+17/+12 melee (1d6+9/18–20, +1 opposable scimitar*);
Face/Reach 5 ft. x 10 ft./5 ft.; SA Improved grab;
SQ Animal companions (2 badgers, 2 hawks, tiger,
wolf ), half-elf traits, nature sense, resist nature’s lure,
scent, trackless step, venom immunity, wild shape (Tiny,
Small, Medium-size, Large, or dire animal 5/day),
woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +12;
Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 10.
Improved Grab (Ex): If Thyme hits with a claw, she
deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a
free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Improved grab works only against Medium-size or
smaller opponents. Thyme has the option to conduct the
grapple normally or simply use her claw to hold the opponent.
Each successful grapple check she makes during
successive rounds automatically deals claw damage.
Scent (Ex): Thyme can detect approaching enemies,
sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
Possessions: +1 opposable scimitar*, periapt of wisdom +2 on
wilding clasp*.


Thyme (badger form), female half-elf Drd12: CR
12; Tiny humanoid (elf ); HD 12d8+12; hp 66; Init +3;
Spd 30 ft., burrow 10 ft.; AC 15 (touch 15, flat-footed
12); Atk +14 melee (1d2–1, 2 claws) and +12 melee
(1d3–1, bite)
; Face/Reach 2.5 ft. x 2.5 ft./0 ft.; SA Rage;
SQ Animal companions (2 badgers, 2 hawks, tiger,
wolf ), half-elf traits, nature sense, resist nature’s lure,
trackless step, venom immunity, wild shape (Tiny, Small,
Medium-size, Large, or dire animal 5/day), woodland
stride; AL N; SV Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +12; Str 8, Dex
17, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +10, Concentration
+7, Handle Animal +7, Heal +11, Hide +11, Intuit Direction
+9, Knowledge (nature) +16, Listen +5, Profession
(herbalist) +9, Ride (horse) +5 (this is funny), Scry +6, Search +2, Spellcraft
+6, Spot +5, Wilderness Lore +19; Blindsight, Create Infusion, Multiattack, Natural Spell, Track,
Weapon Finesse (bite), Weapon Finesse (claw).
Rage (Ex): When Thyme takes damage in combat
while in her badger form, she flies into a berserk rage
the following round, clawing and biting madly until
either she or her opponent is dead. She gains +4 Str,
+4 Con, and –2 AC. She cannot end her rage voluntarily.
Possessions: Periapt of wisdom +2 on wilding clasp*.

Note that she gains the natural attack routine of the creatures she wild shapes into, and also gain the animal's feats (most animals don't get feats, but animals with higher Dex than Str scores have Weapon Finesse, even if the MM doesn't explicitly state this; otherwise the small animals in the MM would have much smaller attack bonuses. I did the math myself).

I have also noticed that it does not explictly state anything about the attack routine. WotC could use some better editors :-)

I will post an update in a few days; I printed the WotC description of the new Wild Shape and would have posted it here, only I lent it to a friend and rather foolishly erased the file from my computer. I scoured the computer twice trying to find it. (Sigh).

FYI, Wild Shape no longer refer to Polymorph Other/Self.

The following version of this ability supersedes the one presented in the Player's Handbook.

At 5th-level, a druid gains the spell-like ability to turn herself into a Small or Medium-size animal (but not a dire animal or a legendary animal) and back again once per day. The druid may only adopt one animal form per use of this ability.

The creatures available as wild shape forms include some giant animals (as described in Appendix I of the Monster Manual) but not beasts, magical beasts, or anything with a type other than animal. The druid may use wild shape to become a dog or a giant lizard, but not an owlbear. THe form chosen must be that of an animal she is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear.

The druid acquires the physical and natural abilities of the form she has taken while retaining her own mind. Physical abilities include size as well as Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include (natural) armor, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, or gore), sensory abilities (such as low-light vision), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings or gills, number of extremities, and so forth). Natural abilities also include mundane movement capabilities, such as walking, swimming, and flying with wings. The druid also gains all the racial bonuses and feats of the animal form selected. She does not gain any supernatural or spell-like abilities of her new form, but does gain all the form's extraordinary abilities.

The druid retains her own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and classes, hit points (despite any change in her Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.) The druid also retains her own type (for example, humanoid), extraordinary abilities, and spell-like abilities, but not her supernatural abilities.

Conclusion
You gain the animal's feats (Weapon Finesse)
You gain the animal's racial skill bonuses
You gain the animal's natural attack routine
 
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