Will 2011 be the last year of Wizards D&D?

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

I honestly think that if WoTC is going to continue making D&D, they need to get as far away from books as possible.

More miniatures, tiles, board games, and things that lead you online to the DDI.

But then again, I think they need to make the DDI free as the character creator part and charge people for access to things like Dragon, Dungeon, VTT, etc... Getting people to make character to play your game should be something you want to encourage as much as possible, especially when you're going to be pulling that data to see what they're doing. Making a beta product and charging the customer for it while misleading them for months as to whats going on on the other hand...

they should have a free version of the character builder yes, but just with the first levels and a limited selection of classes... I would go for levels 1-3rd of the essential character in the first two heroes books or little more, a limited number of feats and items....

and yes more boardgames, tiles, miniatures, boxed adventures, boxed expansion that work as stand alone D&D games (ala Gamma World and future ravenloft setting) and on and on (plushes, action figures, videogames and so on.....)

 

[Shazman]

I hope that we can safely discuss our hobby here at enworld without wishing direct ill will on fellow gamers and friends. Please advocate change in policy and output, rather than hoping for Christmas loss of jobs.

~ if you have a comment about moderation, please email the moderator directly. Don't reply in the thread. Thanks. Plane Sailing ~

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not so much wishing ill as stating that something needs to change. I probably should have stated that differently. When D&D "is very successful" according to WotC, they lay off people like crazy (I would say the wrong people have been layed off since it appears that management, not the designers, are responsible for bad decisions and massive failures). When you have huge debacles like what has happened to DDI lately, it seems like there is no fallout. When something is fouled up as bad as current DDI, especially the new online CB, it seems like there should be some consequences or things won't get better. It seems that the D&D brand is in dire need of a change in management.

Yeah, well, I think calling what WotC has done in a 'huge debacle' is overstatement. They have delivered a LARGE amount of really good stuff in 2010. In one small instance the rollout of one part of one product hit a bump. I'd call any organization that immediately axes all its management of a product line at the slightest mistake a giant pack of fools.

When you go around firing the people in charge because SOMEONE somewhere made a mistake what do you get? At best you get to go down your list of people you'd like in those positions and hire the SECOND best choice for that position. Gone is anything that was learned by the last people there in that position. Instead you have created a giant fear of any kind of risk taking and destroyed whatever institutional knowledge was gained in the process of making the mistake, like how and why not to do that again. The people you replace them with may well NOT make the same mistake the first batch did. You can be sure they won't do anything innovative or at all risky since they well know there is ZERO tolerance for mistakes. It is just stupid business practice.

As my first boss told me when I was hired "If you aren't making mistakes then you're not learning and you're not taking risks." He was right too. Permission to fail is a very important thing to have. Now, if someone constantly fails in boneheaded ways and doesn't seem to learn anything, then OF COURSE you fire them. Can you really honestly say that is the situation at WotC? I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[MrMyth]

I'm not so much wishing ill as stating that something needs to change. I probably should have stated that differently. When D&D "is very successful" according to WotC, they lay off people like crazy (I would say the wrong people have been layed off since it appears that management, not the designers, are responsible for bad decisions and massive failures). When you have huge debacles like what has happened to DDI lately, it seems like there is no fallout. When something is fouled up as bad as current DDI, especially the new online CB, it seems like there should be some consequences or things won't get better. It seems that the D&D brand is in dire need of a change in management.

Except the thing is, most of the issues with the recent CB launch came as the result of management change. They got a new online director and started planning out a new direction for DDI from the ground floor. Which has since manifested as an online CB, plus the VTT beta and upcoming online MB and other tools.

Now, there have been significant and fundamental issues with the approach they took in launching the online CB.

But saying that we should, because of that, switch management again? That's a terrible plan, because it would mean the current direction just gets scrapped entirely and we again go back to square one, with even more frustration and anger over the chance in direction.

As it is, let the current scenario play out, and we may actually end up somewhere decent. But knee-jerk reaction changes in direction is only going to make the situation worse.

 

[Herschel]

. When D&D "is very successful" according to WotC, they lay off people like crazy ...

You obviously have very little experience in a corporate environment. Layoffs happen all the time in businesses, successful or not. If they think someone will do something cheaper, or they can save money by running leaner, they will, regardless of the quality of the people involved.

In other words, if a business feels they have two good people but one of them is enough to do a certain job, or someone cheaper can do that job, they make the move.

 

[JoeGKushner]

This bit, not quite, Here I would make the VTT free but point to and provide via DDI lots of addons that make the VTT simple to use.
If I was to make the CB free then only for the first 3 levels or so and some free level 1 to 3 adventures, with an open ended story. Want to see the end sing up on DDI.

ALso if the VTT access is free and the initial level characters then one can run sponsored on line encounter type games for the uninitiated with some goodies redemable when they sign up.

The probloem with this low level of access requiring payment for higher features is that it's competing against things like Guild Wars and other free online play games. While the two are different overall experiences, from many sources, it seems that the base for table top RPG is shrinking. Asking people to pay to play... while possible doesn't make me think long term growth is going to be around, especially as the regular online games get mroe and more competitive and unfortunately for D&D, WoW has such a huge head start on them, especially in the fantasy field, that honestly, they will never catch up in my opinion in an online contest (as actually proven once so far with the Eberron online game.)

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The probloem with this low level of access requiring payment for higher features is that it's competing against things like Guild Wars and other free online play games. While the two are different overall experiences, from many sources, it seems that the base for table top RPG is shrinking. Asking people to pay to play... while possible doesn't make me think long term growth is going to be around, especially as the regular online games get mroe and more competitive and unfortunately for D&D, WoW has such a huge head start on them, especially in the fantasy field, that honestly, they will never catch up in my opinion in an online contest (as actually proven once so far with the Eberron online game.)

Ok, first off, I don't know that thre base for pnp rpg play is skrinking, and I am not convinced that you know it either.

Secondly, Wow, Guildwars et al, are not DM'able games. You take what missions are there and that is pretty much it. The story is pretty shallow even compared to crpgs. Now one could argue that Neverwinter could be run as a DM'ed game. In that modules could be to DM and tools were (for NWN1 at least) to facilitate Dm'ing.However, preperation for such games was pretty involved.

Now tools such as maptool, the DDI VTT or other similar tools can be run as a simple whiteboard + die roller. The DM has his/her module printed out and the players have their sheets. The DM draws the map on the fly as at the table and dice are rolled in the chat window. I imagine that it would work resonably well.

It can also be run by creating maps beforehand using the tools to do so and to create tokens for the monsters and characters and so forth. With more work much of the mechancial detail can be incorporated using macros or what ever. This does increase the burden on the DM in preparation.
Now, in the real world many DM's buy adventures (as single modules or paths) to reduce preparation time. I see not reason why they would not buy prefabricated modules for a supported VTT.

Now as to the separate question, can WOTC market D&D to WoW players. and expect much success. Well that depends on what you mean by success.

I am not sure it is relevant though. I live in rural ireland where as far as I know there are very few D&D players. I know that I have had very little success over the last 20 years at getting games. There was a period when I came back from college I had a group then it borke up then many years of nothing then I got my nephews playing. Now I see that ending within the next couple of years due to college and stuff like that.

An easy to use online set of tools that would allow gaming with little prepration on my part would be very arttractive. I could game more regularly than I have since college. I strongly suspect I am not alone.

 

[Shawn_Kehoe]

On the topic of the Red Box:

I think most of us will agree that the best way to learn D&D has *always* been to join a game with experienced players who don't mind showing you the ropes. If the new player enjoys it after a few sessions, they can buy their own PHB or Essentials book and possibly explore DMing at a later point. The best way to learn D&D doesn't involve any introductory product.

That having been said ... sometimes a prospective player doesn't know anybody who plays. Or perhaps they don't get along with them. Maybe they really want to try the game out with friends who know nothing about it. Somebody has to be patient zero.

In those situations, the Red Box shows its value. It only covers levels 1 to 3, but it does so for multiple players and a DM. It's a low-cost way to try out the game. I would also imagine it's a fair bit easier on the new DM than full blown D&D 4e or Pathfinder.

And if the players decide they like it? Yes, the DM will need a DM kit, and someone in the group will need to buy a Rules Compendium and a Heroes of the... volume. But they still have the maps, tokens and the dice from the Red box! Those are 100% compatible with 4e ... and 3.5. If we arbitrarily set the value of those reusable bits at $10, that basically makes the Red box a $10 gamble for 4-5 players to try out D&D. That seems pretty safe to me.

If a friend wants to learn D&D, I'll invite him into my game. But if my best friend's daughter wants to learn D&D 1000 miles away from me, I'm sending the Red Box as her Christmas present.

(For the record, she's 2 years old and getting a Godzilla plush this year. Her dad is totally getting Gamma World though )

 

[MrMyth]

The probloem with this low level of access requiring payment for higher features is that it's competing against things like Guild Wars and other free online play games. While the two are different overall experiences, from many sources, it seems that the base for table top RPG is shrinking. Asking people to pay to play... while possible doesn't make me think long term growth is going to be around, especially as the regular online games get mroe and more competitive and unfortunately for D&D, WoW has such a huge head start on them, especially in the fantasy field, that honestly, they will never catch up in my opinion in an online contest (as actually proven once so far with the Eberron online game.)

1) I don't think you can actually compare the VTT and DDI vs MMOs as an actual battle for the same audience. Many MMO players will also want DDI for their D&D experience, without it coming at the cost of their MMO time. Many D&D players have no interest in MMOs. Many MMO players have no interest in D&D. There may be some level of competition, but I doubt it is anywhere as direct as you seem to be claiming. WotC isn't looking for something that will draw people away from MMOs to play online D&D. They are looking to provide an additional resource to already existing D&D players. Those are completely different things.

2) I think the idea that 'giving everything away for free is a sure winner!' rarely holds true. I think that offering a free demo of the online CB for low levels is a good idea, as it was a very successful approach with the offline CB. I imagine something similar would work well with the VTT. I think giving either away for free would be depriving themselves of a good chunk of income for little actual gain.

 

[Kafen]

On the topic of the Red Box:

I think most of us will agree that the best way to learn D&D has *always* been to join a game with experienced players who don't mind showing you the ropes. If the new player enjoys it after a few sessions, they can buy their own PHB or Essentials book and possibly explore DMing at a later point. The best way to learn D&D doesn't involve any introductory product.

That having been said ... sometimes a prospective player doesn't know anybody who plays. Or perhaps they don't get along with them. Maybe they really want to try the game out with friends who know nothing about it. Somebody has to be patient zero.

In those situations, the Red Box shows its value. It only covers levels 1 to 3, but it does so for multiple players and a DM. It's a low-cost way to try out the game. I would also imagine it's a fair bit easier on the new DM than full blown D&D 4e or Pathfinder.

And if the players decide they like it? Yes, the DM will need a DM kit, and someone in the group will need to buy a Rules Compendium and a Heroes of the... volume. But they still have the maps, tokens and the dice from the Red box! Those are 100% compatible with 4e ... and 3.5. If we arbitrarily set the value of those reusable bits at $10, that basically makes the Red box a $10 gamble for 4-5 players to try out D&D. That seems pretty safe to me.

If a friend wants to learn D&D, I'll invite him into my game. But if my best friend's daughter wants to learn D&D 1000 miles away from me, I'm sending the Red Box as her Christmas present.

(For the record, she's 2 years old and getting a Godzilla plush this year. Her dad is totally getting Gamma World though )

I agree with the points on all levels with the addition of one thing. People live in an information age. Most people with a laptop, desktop, phone, and/or cyborg implant does a google search on 4e the moment they hit a snag. So, it is hard for a good GM to actually draw people into the game using the Red Box if they defer to the internet if you are trying to lure the young people into the game. It is a common issue with modern kids. They love phone apps.

Let us say you send your nephew/niece a copy... I will use my own nephew's story after my gift of the Red Box.

When you get to the internet trying to figure it out, you find the Red Box does not have any easy answers. The main site leads you to a pay site when you click tools. The free section is not present. The large portion of materials do not apply to the actual game. It is an easy choice to toss the thing to the side and use your phone to check out stupid pet tricks on your youtube app which is free. Plus, you get to spend your allowance on the awesome bacon burger. Bonus! You have extra time to surf for lawl cats to impress that one Person.

That being said, it is a fun idea if you are close to the kids and can corrupt their video game minds before they tire of the odd paper things with ink on them. I wish others luck in that regard.