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Will 4E Eberron be as bad as FR?

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Eberron had a feeling of being shoehorned in.

...

I don't know how you got this feeling, since Eberron's owes its existence to taking the core 3e ideas and just extrapolating on them. That's how it was designed in the first place, and how it grew to accommodate everything, and how it became sort of "kitchen sink" fantasy.

Eberron was BORN from 3e. I don't know how it seems shoehorned into 3e.
 

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Hellcow

Adventurer
I don't have time to address every point that's been raised in conjunction with me, but I'll touch on a few.

1. I do like 4E. I think it's a good match for Eberron in a number of ways. The integration of action points into the core rules is one example of this. The fact that PCs and NPCs are handled in different ways ties to the "PCs are special" aspect of Eberron. Personally, I've found that skill challenges help when developing a campaign that is heavily based on espionage or intrigue. However, I don't think I've ever said that 4E is "ideal". I like it. I'm enjoying playing it. I think it's a good match for Eberron. But I also like Over The Edge, Hero System, Dogs In The Vineyard, and many many other games. And I've run Eberron using Over The Edge rules in the past. The best system depends n what you're looking for. I know people who prefer to stick with 3.5 for Eberron, and I know people who've converted it to Savage Worlds. At the moment, when I play D&D, I'm playing 4E, not 3.5 - but that doesn't mean I think 3E is garbage and 4E is the One True System.

2. Touching on a question that was raised, yes, the noir aspect of things is still there. Personally, I think that a lot of the sources of tension and intrigue in the world didn't get enough attention in the 3E edition, and I've tried to call these out in my sections of the 4E book. Ongoing tension between the Thronehold nations and the fear of the next war: the treaty's only been signed for a few years, and was primarily only signed because of fear of the Mourning, and there's a strong cold war going on. This is something seen in The Queen of Stone, and something I want to make sure people realize for the world at large. There is peace - but the threat of war and the intrigue associated with this threat are major concerns. Likewise you have the ambition of the dragonmarked houses, which can come out in many ways. In general, this is what I feel 4E Eberron has to offer - a closer look at some of the nations, organizations, or subjects that never received much attention the first time around.

3. I think people are overly concerned about the transformation of Eberron's cosmology. What I've said before is that I feel that my novels stand up perfectly well in 4E Eberron - and those novels include important connections to Thelanis, Fernia, and Dal Quor. Xoriat may be Eberron's far realm, but it's still the home of the daelkyr, and still the realm of madness, touching every mortal mind in its own way. Eberron still has its manifest zones, and the power of the planes still waxes and wanes. The orrery model of the planes still exists, because it's a model used to reflect that shifting planar influence. It's simply not the ONLY model.

4. For what it's worth, I am happy with the story we've developed for the Eladrin in Eberron... and no, they aren't just Aereni elves. (Side note: I've said before that thanks to the Undying Court, the Aereni are really more remarkable for their accomplishments in the divine sphere than in the arcane. I'm thus happy to see that the Avenger is an excellent match for elves... makes a great Aereni Deathguard trying to hunt down the last scion of Vol!)

I'm not a WotC marketer. There are a few things in the 4E Eberron books that I would have done differently if they'd been entirely in my hands... just as there are many things I'd have done differently in many 3E Eberron books. I'm not going to go into detail, as I don't have the time and I don't want to criticize designers I respect; we've debated the issues in question, and I understand why these decisions were made. My point is that I'm NOT promising that it's the best thing since platinum pieces, that it will solve all your problems, that it will do your dishes and polish your dice. But on the balance, I'm happy with how it turned out, and there are certain aspects I'm very happy with. You'll need to judge for yourself when you have the chance.
 

WotC_GregB

First Post
I think the Forgotten Realms CG and PG suffered a little bit from being produced on the heels of the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide. I worked on the FRPG as a writer and the EPG as an editor, and having gone through part of the process on both books, I can say that we definitely improved the process the second time around. We sat down after finishing the Forgotten Realms PG and CG and took a hard look at what we could do better. Hopefully it will show.
 

Parlan

First Post
Snip- good stuff.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Keith. I`m not sure about the rumored changes to the cosmology, but I`ll give you all the benefit of the doubt.

I do hope the noir aspects of Eberron are emphasized in the new edition. The more hooks in this regard the better, as, e.g., rivalries among the various kingdoms.
 

dm4hire

Explorer
I think Eberron will do nicely in 4e despite my reservations about the game. A lot of the elements that distinguished the setting in 3e are indeed now part of 4e that I actually liked, namely action points and a combining of everything available in the game system included in the world. I would have liked to see FR fleshed out a bit more, but one thing I hope is that both settings will not get expanded beyond their original core books. Perhaps if WotC would have formatted FR better they could have gotten a bit more fluff into it. I'm not a fan of their current layout running through all books. While I am relectant to agree it helps a little in regards to class powers, I think the majority of everything else included in the books would be best served by using a different format, especially if they plan on selling the power cards or making them printable on DDI. Save the block format for those products and streamline the books so they hold more content.
 

Mr. Wilson

Explorer
I think the Forgotten Realms CG and PG suffered a little bit from being produced on the heels of the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide. I worked on the FRPG as a writer and the EPG as an editor, and having gone through part of the process on both books, I can say that we definitely improved the process the second time around. We sat down after finishing the Forgotten Realms PG and CG and took a hard look at what we could do better. Hopefully it will show.

Interesting.

I don't suppose you could expand on what you think could have been improved in the FR CG and PG's?
 

Imaro

Legend
You know personally I really believe 4e needs a good setting for the rules to work in. Unfortunately I think the new Realms was too polarizing in both it's changes and the scarcity of information that was offered through the FRCG and FRPG. I hope 4e Eberron addresses this (the changes and amount of information) in a better way. I think with the implied PoL and the revamped FR, WotC already has 2 "lite" settings (never imagined I'd use that descriptor on the FR... :D), what they need now is a setting with a rich background and a nice level of detail. I didn't buy the FR setting for 4e because I had read too many reviews that cited it's lack of material & info vs. price point... I'm waiting to see if Eberron will be the same way.

Really guys I understand wanting to push the DDI subscriptions, from a business standpoint it's important, but I and many others (I believe) want a complete setting for their money that is at least comparable to the setting books we got in the 3.5 era (Ghelspad, Eberron & FR hardcovers, Dragonlance, Iron Kingdoms, etc.).

I almost wish WotC had more closely followed the way White Wolf chose to do this... certain games/settings are fully supported (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf) while others are limited runs (Promethean, Changeling, Hunter & Geist). Also I think two books, at least in 4e's layout and format, really isn't enough material for a campaign setting period (I mean the single FRCS holds probably 2x as much info as the 4e FRCS at about a comparable price point), even White Wolf makes a commitment of 5 books on it's limited lines.

I think if you continue to keep your settings at bare minimum (without a subscription to DDI) it's only going to drive many with 3.5 setting books to use that instead or turn to 3PP who offer much more at a comparable price point... I know I would do this if I wanted to run a FR game as opposed to buying the 4e versions, and if Eberron is the same way I will probably do the same with it.

These of course are just some of my thoughts. YMMV of course.
 

Skywalker

Adventurer
FWIW I am a big fan of FR 4e. It has been a highlight for me of the 4e adventures so far. I wouldn't have touched FR with a barge pole in 3e.

Most of the vitriol I have seen against FR4e comes from FR3e fans. From that POV I am expecting the same complaints with Eberron4e from Eberron 3e fans as I am expecting them WotC to do much the same thing with the setting.
 

Primal

First Post
FWIW I am a big fan of FR 4e. It has been a highlight for me of the 4e adventures so far. I wouldn't have touched FR with a barge pole in 3e.

Most of the vitriol I have seen against FR4e comes from FR3e fans. From that POV I am expecting the same complaints with Eberron4e from Eberron 3e fans as I am expecting them WotC to do much the same thing with the setting.

Well, I've been a FR fan ever since good ol' Grey Boxed Set (1E). I can't speak for everyone, but I personally know six groups (in RL) that played in FR, and not a single one could stomach these changes (mine included).
 


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