Will 4E Eberron be as bad as FR?

[JackSmithIV]

That sums up my opinion of the 4gotten realms as well. I can't speak for everybody, but their implementation of 4E changes to the Realms makes even the novels distasteful to me. The last one I read had some bits about the spellplague at the end that it could have done without. I don't see myself reading many Realms novels in the future, and I won't touch any 4E related Realms products with a ten foot pole.

I attribute the reason that the Forgotten Realms forums are a miserable place to be. I bet you if there was a Realmslore forum, or a Running the Realms forum that was only for those who dig the new setting, it'd be absolutely teeming with activity. Plenty of people are running the realms, such as myself, but I wouldn't touch the Realms forums because I can't escape the constantly bad energy. One of the few things I actually went there for was novel suggestions, and I got a helpful reply or two, and then a buch of grognards started literally making FUMING smileys because I'd posted in Realmslore instead of FR: General, and a conversation sparked around why the moderators were so late in moving the thread.

For me, forums can be ruined by people who whine and mostly just make threads talking about "Oh, if only Wizards hadn't done this", or "Ugh, the new _______ destroys what I love about D&D". But then again, that offers the question as to why I hang around most D&D forums anymore.

D&D forums have gotten to the point where it's not debate anymore. It's us-vs.-them these days, and I can't stand it. The naysayers make the forums an ugly place to be. And people say that it's what's neccessary if they want the change they prefer to be brought about, but it's just using a place that's supposed to be about sharing in the joy of the gaming community as a platform.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I attribute the reason that the Forgotten Realms forums are a miserable place to be. I bet you if there was a Realmslore forum, or a Running the Realms forum that was only for those who dig the new setting, it'd be absolutely teeming with activity. Plenty of people are running the realms, such as myself, but I wouldn't touch the Realms forums because I can't escape the constantly bad energy. One of the few things I actually went there for was novel suggestions, and I got a helpful reply or two, and then a buch of grognards started literally making FUMING smileys because I'd posted in Realmslore instead of FR: General, and a conversation sparked around why the moderators were so late in moving the thread.

For me, forums can be ruined by people who whine and mostly just make threads talking about "Oh, if only Wizards hadn't done this", or "Ugh, the new _______ destroys what I love about D&D". But then again, that offers the question as to why I hang around most D&D forums anymore.

D&D forums have gotten to the point where it's not debate anymore. It's us-vs.-them these days, and I can't stand it. The naysayers make the forums an ugly place to be. And people say that it's what's neccessary if they want the change they prefer to be brought about, but it's just using a place that's supposed to be about sharing in the joy of the gaming community as a platform.

Yeah, sorry, no. If you like the newest edition, you aren't allowed to complain about whining. The new edition came about because of whining. You can't say "Well, I have MY new thing, but NOBODY ELSE is allowed to have THEIRS."

Complaining for the sake of complaining doesn't exist. Oh sure, people might complain because they want to, but there's always someone listening. Enough people were mad about 3.5 that 4e came out. Your edition exists because people where whining. So turning around and saying "I'M TIRED OF WHINERS" is a bit near-sighted.

Really though, if you want a forum for people who love the new FR for 4th edition, you could make it.

 

[Primal]

Actually, Keith Baker himself says that Eberron fits 4th better than it did 3.5, and that 4th is Eberron's ideal.


So I have a feeling that when that particular world has the rules to make it what it was supposed to be in the first place it'll be awesome. But then again, I'm just a fanboi.

Just wait will the Mournplague hits it...

 

[Nymrohd]

To be honest, while noone ever wins the edition war, the edition battles for primacy over this or that forum have been won all over the net. Some places manage to keep things civilized, like here, but elsewhere less so. Posting on the FR forums, where over half the posts are by 10 people who know each other so well (since they post at the same place all the time) that they have inside jokes and nicknames, and where all those people hate 4E FR, and most 4E as well, is somewhat futile. Heck I very much don't like what they did to 4E FR and I still am not willing to deal with the snide negativity.

 

[JackSmithIV]

Yeah, sorry, no. If you like the newest edition, you aren't allowed to complain about whining. The new edition came about because of whining. You can't say "Well, I have MY new thing, but NOBODY ELSE is allowed to have THEIRS."

Complaining for the sake of complaining doesn't exist. Oh sure, people might complain because they want to, but there's always someone listening. Enough people were mad about 3.5 that 4e came out. Your edition exists because people where whining. So turning around and saying "I'M TIRED OF WHINERS" is a bit near-sighted.

I tried to head this one off, and failed.

I was tired of whiners back then, too. I like talking about playing games, not what people hate about them. And I don't have what I have because of whiners, I have what I have because of great developers. Good people who put honest time and hardwork into making a good game for me to play. Sure, criticism contributes, but 4th Edition happened because 3rd edition got out of control.

Saying that I'm "turning around" implies that I was a 3rd Edition hater in the first place. I loved 3rd edition back then, and love 4th now. And complaining for the sake of complaining DOES exist, as does complaining for validation.

To be honest, while noone ever wins the edition war, the edition battles for primacy over this or that forum have been won all over the net. Some places manage to keep things civilized, like here, but elsewhere less so. Posting on the FR forums, where over half the posts are by 10 people who know each other so well (since they post at the same place all the time) that they have inside jokes and nicknames, and where all those people hate 4E FR, and most 4E as well, is somewhat futile. Heck I very much don't like what they did to 4E FR and I still am not willing to deal with the snide negativity.

Exactly, and thank you.

 

[Shemeska]

the Realms could have their Tree (IIRC, I'm not a Realms player)

The Realms used the Great Wheel / Planescape cosmology for 1e and 2e. In 3e the design team retconned the setting into using the Great Tree cosmology, but never really put much detail into it, or gave any in-game explanation to the change, or the continuity problems it gave rise to.

4e FR compounded the problem more by replacing the cosmology for the second time in less than a decade, dumping the Great Tree, and inserting the 4e default PoL cosmology with a few names changed around to accomodate the (much reduced in size) FR pantheon.

 

[Mercule]

The Realms used the Great Wheel / Planescape cosmology for 1e and 2e. In 3e the design team retconned the setting into using the Great Tree cosmology, but never really put much detail into it, or gave any in-game explanation to the change, or the continuity problems it gave rise to.

4e FR compounded the problem more by replacing the cosmology for the second time in less than a decade, dumping the Great Tree, and inserting the 4e default PoL cosmology with a few names changed around to accomodate the (much reduced in size) FR pantheon.

True. The 3e cosmology is one of the few things I ever liked about FR, so that's probably why it stuck in my mind. Still, the point holds. FR did have a unique cosmology (which, IMO, is a good thing) and 4e re-vanillaed it. Since, as I said, I believe unique cosmologies to be one of the best things about different settings, I don't see this as boding well for WotC settings.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm still worried, given that we've already been told that Eberron's unique cosmology is going to be sacrificed on the altar of 4th edition.

< rant >
It would be a stupid move on their part, sacrificing huge amounts of Eberronic flavour, backstory and epic plot points to meet the hubris of designers pet new cosmologies
</ rant >

Seriously, the Eberron cosmology was one of the things which most attracted me to the setting initially, and which provides such flavour through the threat of Xoriat, the machinations of Dal Quor, the sanity provided by having Dolurrh as a reason why all those dead old heroes can't be resurrected while allowing for classic journeys to the land of the dead to retrieve dead loved ones.

Who would want to replace a wonderful every changing Orrery with the possibility of a Great Conjunction with a boring old astral sea and elemental chaos just like every other setting? Not I!

 

[Scars Unseen]

My guess is that by the time 5th edition comes around, the Forgotten Realms setting will suffer the fate that Greyhawk did in 3rd. The setting didn't fit with the developers' ideas of what a D&D setting should be, and now they have lost many of the fans that kept it popular so long. Hell, I wouldn't pay six dollars for a paperback novel of the new realms, forget about shelling out forty for that parody they are parading around.

I guess the only positive thing that came out of that farce for me was that I now appreciate AEG more than ever. They know how to advance a setting's metaplot: slowly, with updates in every sourcebook. I doubt that we would have the same division in the fanbase(old vs new) if WoTC had been slowly building up to this over the past 8 years. Their would still be some general annoyance, but there wouldn't be this general feeling of betrayal that many of us old fans feel.

As for Eberron, don't know, don't care. That setting never grabbed me in 3E and WoTC's treatment of FR does not leave me compelled to give any of their other attempts a chance. Unfair? Sure, but they have a lot of ground to cover to earn my wallet again. Once bitten...

 

[Glyfair]

Who would want to replace a wonderful every changing Orrery with the possibility of a Great Conjunction with a boring old astral sea and elemental chaos just like every other setting? Not I!

Keith has stated it won't be as much of a change as many are afraid of. Most things will work exactly the same, but it will be a new way of looking at it.