Pillars of Hercules
First Post
I was thinking today about the WeG/d20 SWRP thread, and the thought crossed my mind - yeah, I like the Chaosium Call of Cthulhu (CoC) game just fine, so why buy d20 CoC?
This led me wandering down memory lane about Chaosium CoC's system, the advantages and disadvantages of which were excellently detailed in a previous thread (sorry, no link). The thread mentioned that the two main knocks on Chaosium's system were that: (1) your primary character stats had little impact on skills or gameplay in general (with a few exceptions such as the relationship between DEX and Dodge and the initial generation of skill points based on, IIRC, Idea and Edu stats - although this itself is a problem, 'cause how does being educated help me learn to shoot a rifle?); and (2) the skill system "topped out" at 100%, which could be a problem if your character actually lived long enough to improve his/her best skills (it led to something akin to the 2E thief weirdness where your thief had 120% lockpick but all locks your DM would throw at you were -40%, so that you actually had more than a "fumble only" chance of blowing the lockpick check).
In addition, I personally was always a little uncomfortable with the skill improvement system of Chaosium's game, as it was at heart based on luck (not sure if this came up in the prior CoC system thread). In some ways it was a neat mechanic - you checked a box for any skill you successfully used in an adventure, then afterwards you tried to FAIL a skill roll and if you did you gained 1d3 or 1d6 skill points (can't remember which, 1d3 IIRC). There was some logic to it - after all, master locksmiths don't really learn anything new from cracking the 20th simple safe in a row, while a novice who got lucky might remember how he pulled it off. Still, you COULD have a character succeed at a skill 20 times in an adventure, roll an 01 for the "improvement" check, and get hosed.
I then thought - you know, the d20 system will solve a lot of these problems! Since skills rolls in d20 are modified by the relevant stat, problem 1) above is pretty much gone, while the system of DCs means that you can just keep on improving a skill without "hitting the wall" of 100% proficiency - bang, there goes problem 2).
AND THEN, IT REALLY HIT ME - While the d20 system was busy solving my few gripes about Chaosium's product, Chaosium's strong points could produce a VERY different d20 IF those strong points are retained. Chaosium's CoC game is a good variety of levelless and PRACTICALLY classless system (are there 2 L's in levelless or one? Is it even a real word? Also, I know, Chaosium CoC is not totally classless, but bear with me).
If d20 CoC adopts the d20 skill mechanic (as it surely will), but drops classes, levels and class- and level-dependent benefits, won't we be very close to a workable port of a levelless, classless d20 game that can be adapted to any genre if you happen to prefer a levelless, classless game?
Don't get me wrong, although I have a slight preference for levelless/classless, I'm not a fanatic about it. I love 3E D&D in all its much-improved glory. But, unless d20 Cthulhu is big on classes, levels and class- and level-dependant benefits (and I don't see how it could be and still keep the essential feel of the CoC genre), we could be looking at a game system that could be warped into classless/leveless d20 pretty easily.
Now, this is not to imply that d20 CoC will have no uses other than to create classless/levelless D&D, but I throw out my little hopes here for your consideration. I confess I haven't looked at d20 CoC at all. Are they planning to have XP? Levels? Classes? If so, this post is so many wasted electrons. But again, how can you have a game with CoC's unique "the PCs are weaklings in the face of the outer darkness" feel with classes, levels and XP? Feats don't necessarily kill the feel, but given that we usually pass out feats in a level-dependent manner, wouldn't it be easier if d20 CoC just made feats into skills, meaning in turn that EVERYTHING in d20 CoC is a skill (a la Chaosium's system)?
There are possible flies in the ointment. How do you determine starting skill points? Without levels and without an easy way of using the Chaosium "improvement roll," what mechanism do you use to improve PC skills in d20 CoC? Frankly, if we can answer these questions, even if d20 CoC is nothing like I've postulated, I guarantee that given a sufficient supply of free time and caffeine I could develop a good classless/levelless game by substituting d20's skill system into Chaosium's CoC system.
Wow, what a ramble. Hopefully it made sense. Any answers to my questions or thoughts on this?
This led me wandering down memory lane about Chaosium CoC's system, the advantages and disadvantages of which were excellently detailed in a previous thread (sorry, no link). The thread mentioned that the two main knocks on Chaosium's system were that: (1) your primary character stats had little impact on skills or gameplay in general (with a few exceptions such as the relationship between DEX and Dodge and the initial generation of skill points based on, IIRC, Idea and Edu stats - although this itself is a problem, 'cause how does being educated help me learn to shoot a rifle?); and (2) the skill system "topped out" at 100%, which could be a problem if your character actually lived long enough to improve his/her best skills (it led to something akin to the 2E thief weirdness where your thief had 120% lockpick but all locks your DM would throw at you were -40%, so that you actually had more than a "fumble only" chance of blowing the lockpick check).
In addition, I personally was always a little uncomfortable with the skill improvement system of Chaosium's game, as it was at heart based on luck (not sure if this came up in the prior CoC system thread). In some ways it was a neat mechanic - you checked a box for any skill you successfully used in an adventure, then afterwards you tried to FAIL a skill roll and if you did you gained 1d3 or 1d6 skill points (can't remember which, 1d3 IIRC). There was some logic to it - after all, master locksmiths don't really learn anything new from cracking the 20th simple safe in a row, while a novice who got lucky might remember how he pulled it off. Still, you COULD have a character succeed at a skill 20 times in an adventure, roll an 01 for the "improvement" check, and get hosed.
I then thought - you know, the d20 system will solve a lot of these problems! Since skills rolls in d20 are modified by the relevant stat, problem 1) above is pretty much gone, while the system of DCs means that you can just keep on improving a skill without "hitting the wall" of 100% proficiency - bang, there goes problem 2).
AND THEN, IT REALLY HIT ME - While the d20 system was busy solving my few gripes about Chaosium's product, Chaosium's strong points could produce a VERY different d20 IF those strong points are retained. Chaosium's CoC game is a good variety of levelless and PRACTICALLY classless system (are there 2 L's in levelless or one? Is it even a real word? Also, I know, Chaosium CoC is not totally classless, but bear with me).
If d20 CoC adopts the d20 skill mechanic (as it surely will), but drops classes, levels and class- and level-dependent benefits, won't we be very close to a workable port of a levelless, classless d20 game that can be adapted to any genre if you happen to prefer a levelless, classless game?
Don't get me wrong, although I have a slight preference for levelless/classless, I'm not a fanatic about it. I love 3E D&D in all its much-improved glory. But, unless d20 Cthulhu is big on classes, levels and class- and level-dependant benefits (and I don't see how it could be and still keep the essential feel of the CoC genre), we could be looking at a game system that could be warped into classless/leveless d20 pretty easily.
Now, this is not to imply that d20 CoC will have no uses other than to create classless/levelless D&D, but I throw out my little hopes here for your consideration. I confess I haven't looked at d20 CoC at all. Are they planning to have XP? Levels? Classes? If so, this post is so many wasted electrons. But again, how can you have a game with CoC's unique "the PCs are weaklings in the face of the outer darkness" feel with classes, levels and XP? Feats don't necessarily kill the feel, but given that we usually pass out feats in a level-dependent manner, wouldn't it be easier if d20 CoC just made feats into skills, meaning in turn that EVERYTHING in d20 CoC is a skill (a la Chaosium's system)?
There are possible flies in the ointment. How do you determine starting skill points? Without levels and without an easy way of using the Chaosium "improvement roll," what mechanism do you use to improve PC skills in d20 CoC? Frankly, if we can answer these questions, even if d20 CoC is nothing like I've postulated, I guarantee that given a sufficient supply of free time and caffeine I could develop a good classless/levelless game by substituting d20's skill system into Chaosium's CoC system.
Wow, what a ramble. Hopefully it made sense. Any answers to my questions or thoughts on this?
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) contains some sample tables with level progression for BAB and Saves. So I believe the levelling mechanics remain unchanged.
