D&D 4E Will the 4E classes be deliberately unbalanced to get players to read?

[Raduin711]

Wow. While I knew Toughness was a lame feat, and the rule books warned that not all feats were created equal, I always attributed them to things like character specialization, and limiting what feats can be expected to do (like toughness)

I didn't know it was about "rules mastery". ugh.

I started playing the game for the teamwork, not for grandstanding.

 

[WhatGravitas]

It's like that person who always plays the same character. It's just no fun for anyone else.

Says who?

Cheers, LT.

 

[AtomicPope]

Says who?

Cheers, LT.

Says everyone else who's had to play along side with the same character since middleschool.

 

[IceFractal]

The thing is, I think they're not so much eliminating system mastery as moving it. They're moving it from character creation to combat positioning/timing. Or more generally, from strategy to tactics - less optimizing the build, less pre-buffing/scrying, but more trying to find the ideal battle formation and synchronize short-duration powers.

So go ahead, play any race/class combination, kick down the door and charge in, you'll be fine. But stand in the wrong place in combat, or use your powers at the wrong time, and you're likely to get smacked down. I'm not 100% sure I like this - I welcome more combat tactics, but why is it a bad thing to have some strategy in character planning and in approach to combat?


Bottom line though - at some level, whether strategy or tactics, you can't avoid system mastery. What makes games interactive is choices. And for choices to be meaningful, there have to be better and worse ones, at least for accomplishing a given result. And that means someone can master making the better choices - system mastery.

 

[AtomicPope]

The thing is, I think they're not so much eliminating system mastery as moving it. They're moving it from character creation to combat positioning/timing. Or more generally, from strategy to tactics - less optimizing the build, less pre-buffing/scrying, but more trying to find the ideal battle formation and synchronize short-duration powers.

Agree. There's still a 5ft step (shift). There's still gaining Combat Advantages. There's still an element of teamwork. All of this is confined to the core mechanics. Understanding that is game mastery (as pointed out by Gary Gygax in Master of the Game )

 

[Staffan]

Magic also has a concept of "Timmy cards." These are cards that look cool, but aren't actually that great in the game. The purpose of such cards is to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they've figured out that one card is better than the other.

That's not quite what it means.

The people making MtG have defined three "archetypal" players: Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, that are each looking for different things from the game. Timmy likes big creatures with cool abilities. Johnny likes discovering things that aren't obvious and making things work in weird ways. And Spike likes to win at any cost.

Now, it's generally so that "Timmy" cards generally aren't quite tournament caliber (with some exceptions, like the "pit fighter legends" from Odyssey), but the purpose of Timmy cards isn't to reward system mastery. It's just that there are some players who enjoy that kind of card more, so they make cards for those as well.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The thing is, I think they're not so much eliminating system mastery as moving it. They're moving it from character creation to combat positioning/timing. Or more generally, from strategy to tactics - less optimizing the build, less pre-buffing/scrying, but more trying to find the ideal battle formation and synchronize short-duration powers.

So go ahead, play any race/class combination, kick down the door and charge in, you'll be fine. But stand in the wrong place in combat, or use your powers at the wrong time, and you're likely to get smacked down. I'm not 100% sure I like this - I welcome more combat tactics, but why is it a bad thing to have some strategy in character planning and in approach to combat?

The reason might be that if you "fail" at character creation, you're stuck with your errors for a long time.
But if you just use suboptimal tactics, you can correct your mistakes over time.

Also, it is easier for the one with "system mastery" to intervene and help the other characters during play. It's a difference telling a fellow player which feats and skills his character should take, and explaining the group how to better cooperate.

Off course, even the latter case can be annoying. But "Let's discuss tactics against the Dragon" sounds a little better then "Let's discuss your character build". From a role-playing perspective, it feels more natural that the members of a party plan their tactics than that they plan how their characters evolve.

 

[Staffan]

Gygax said, in Role-Playing Mastery,

He also wrote, in that book: "AD&D has nine alignments. Your game system might not be this complex...", which has had pretty much all the game groups I've associated with over the years rolling with laughter.

Just because Gygax invented RPGs (with the help of Dave Arneson), that doesn't make him the ultimate authority on the topic. I mean, if you look at the games he made after leaving TSR, they haven't exactly made all that big an impression: Cyborg Commando, Dangerous Journeys/Mythus, and Lejendary Adventures.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The thing is, I think they're not so much eliminating system mastery as moving it. They're moving it from character creation to combat positioning/timing. Or more generally, from strategy to tactics - less optimizing the build, less pre-buffing/scrying, but more trying to find the ideal battle formation and synchronize short-duration powers.

No doubt about it, that is true. However, powers pretty much suggest how to use them, it isn't hidden or hard to figure out. When you have a power that says "deals X damage, push the target 1 square then you may shift after them." then even new players are going to look at that and say "I can move enemies backwards...wouldn't that be good if there was a pit of lava behind him?"

Using good strategy is key to the 4e playstyle. However, it pretty much hits you over the head with exactly HOW to use your powers.

So go ahead, play any race/class combination, kick down the door and charge in, you'll be fine. But stand in the wrong place in combat, or use your powers at the wrong time, and you're likely to get smacked down. I'm not 100% sure I like this - I welcome more combat tactics, but why is it a bad thing to have some strategy in character planning and in approach to combat?

System Mastery will be there in one shape or another as long as there are choices, of course. However, you can work to minimize the effects of those choices and provide advice to new players on exactly what do to.

For instance, if someone didn't push an enemy with their attack when they could have moved it into a flanking position for your next 2 allies to go...one of them might miss because of it, but it is unlikely that such a small difference matters in the end. The party likely still beats the monster.

Compare that to the 8 str, 8 dex, 8 con bard in 3.5 edition who took skill focus(profession(performer)) as a feat. They did this because they figured that fighting wasn't important and if you were going to stand in the back you didn't need any of those stats or any combat feats. This character will likely provide close to no benefit to the party during combat in any round. Especially if they avoid combat useful spells, not knowing any better.

And before you get the idea that there is no STRATEGY in character creation...there is. There is just no clearly powerful ability over all other choices.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There is a rules mastery to character creation I am fine with: The mastery of implementing the character concept you have in your mind with the rules.

Anything that doesn't look so easy at first glance (greatsword wielding Backstabber? Two-Weapon Fighting Fighter?), but probably can be done with the right set of feats and powers. That can be rewarding, without ever being overpowered or unbalanced.