Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[pawsplay]

Emphasis mine.

Interesting.

Now, i think there are crunchy Fate games -- the original Dresden game, and Valiant Comics -- but that is more "complex overlay". Fate itself is not particularly crunchy (but is crunchier than most PbtAs and related narrative games, for sure).

Fate Core is a 310 page rulebook. The rules are challenging to teach to new players, investing new player options is difficult, and the rules aren't something I retain in my head at all times. Just because Fate doesn't have a lot of crunchy little bits does not make it simple. It requires players to understand scene control, it has a specialized vocabulary, it requires the GM to be really alert to using the game's mechanics to create dynamic play. IMO, and this is not scientifically supported, most people who think Fate is simple had a really good Fate GM who hid the hard work for them. Out of ten, I would give GURPS a 7, and Fate an 8.

 

[payn]

Bladerunner was not a bespoke system, though, right? It is based on Year Zero Engine, which is not especially crunchy or complex.

Thing is YZE games are unique in experience compared to one another despite sharing a foundation. YZE works in a way that I believe FFG Gensys was intended to work. Or I should say it works in delivery in ways 5E reskins don’t.

 

[kermit4karate]

Please explain why you think this is a pendulum? I don't. I think that there are more and more systems getting published, and they are all over the spectrum.

Mind you, I'm looking at it by system, not by individual RPG. So yes, if there's another bespoke hyper-focused PbtA it's not moving the needle. Mind you, I love bespoke RPGs, just that they have very narrow focus and coming out with one for a different niche is just an iteration of the mechanics, not an industry trend.

I think it's both -- a pendulum, AND that there are more and more systems getting published.

The RPG community isn't above going through fads or renaissance periods of nostalgia over things that were first popular 30 years ago, bringing them back in favor for a while.

But it's also very true that there are simply more systems and games coming out than ever.

 

[MGibster]

Are you sure that isn't a function of your players not bothering to learn their abilities

It absolutely is a function of them not learning, but I think having so many moving parts is part of what leads them to not learning. It doesn’t help that they’re all playing the game using D&D Beyond for everything.

 

[kermit4karate]

It absolutely is a function of them not learning, but I think having so many moving parts is part of what leads them to not learning. It doesn’t help that they’re all playing the game using D&D Beyond for everything.

Absolutely. I bet there's an inverse correlation between complexity (above a certain sweet spot baseline) and the size of the market for a particular game. More complex means fewer people who will actually be interested in playing it.

 

[Umbran]

Fate Core is a 310 page rulebook.

Um, careful there.

First, that's 310 digest pages, instead of the more common 8"x10" RPG rulebook pages.

More importantly, Fate Condensed is mechanically pretty much the same, and comes in at only 60 pages.

Which is to say, a whole lot of that 310 pages isn't core mechanical complexity.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fate Core is a 310 page rulebook. The rules are challenging to teach to new players, investing new player options is difficult, and the rules aren't something I retain in my head at all times. Just because Fate doesn't have a lot of crunchy little bits does not make it simple. It requires players to understand scene control, it has a specialized vocabulary, it requires the GM to be really alert to using the game's mechanics to create dynamic play. IMO, and this is not scientifically supported, most people who think Fate is simple had a really good Fate GM who hid the hard work for them. Out of ten, I would give GURPS a 7, and Fate an 8.

Interesting. Also good evidence that a narrative-focused system can still have a lot of moving parts.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Um, careful there.
Because Fate Condensed is mechanically pretty much the same, and comes in at only 60 pages.

Which is to say, a whole lot of that 310 pages isn't core mechanical complexity.

Ok. What are all those additional pages for then?

 

[Umbran]

Ok. What are all those additional pages for then?

A lot of the difference is explication, explanation, and examples.

F'rex, The Fate Core rules takes 40 pages to talk about skills and stunts, giving a paragraph about each skill, examples of how each skill might be used with each of the four basic game actions, and providing the full text of 3 example Stunts you might use with every skill.

Fate Condensed gives you about two sentences to define each skill, but none of the "use with every action type" stuff is given. It tells you the generic form of stunts, but doesn't give examples for each and every skill, and so gets through the same concepts in about 6 pages.

The Fate Core Rules has several chapters that are mostly for GMs, about Running the Game, creating Scenes, Sessions, and Scenarios, and long-term play, taking up 90+ pages. There's some great insight for GMs in those pages.

But, the Fate Condensed rules has 7 or 8 pages on those topics, which are not really core mechanics.

 

[soviet]

Ok. What are all those additional pages for then?

Explanation presumably.

One of the things that nontraditional games have to deal with is people bringing assumptions from trad play with them. You have to add extra admonitions to the effect of 'yes we really mean this bit' and 'no don't do this other thing, really'. This extra baggage can make such games look more complex than they really are. I'm pretty sure that to someone brand new to the hobby, D&D is at least as daunting as FATE and probably more.