Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[Micah Sweet]

ok, (I quoted that post as well) but the data is skewed isn't it? Saying that data from BGG shows that current players like complexity is misleading. Because it's really only saying that current fanatic/serious board players like complexity. And players from Ye Old Days were also pretty much only the fanatic/serious players, because, to my point, is that on the old days the vast majority of players were fanatics. Because we had to be. Now that is no longer true. I think most gamers are casual.

I accept your premise, it makes sense. Can you draw a conclusion from this? A call to action?

 

[Reynard]

It's hard to call it crunchy because of the ubiquitous nature of D&D, IMO.

These aren't actually related, though. I suppose you could say that AD&D is easier to learn because of the ubiquity of D&D in general, but that doesn't say anything about the inherent complexity and granularity of the AD&D rules themselves.

 

[bloodtide]

Oh, dear.

You can compare 1E D&D to 5E D&D. Of course, 5E big major selling point is that it is simple and easy to play.

Plenty of older games have pages of rules for things. A lot more newer games have lite rules.

As a hard fun complex gaming guy.....I will say that, when exposed to complex gaming, at least some people like it over the more modern way of gaming.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm trying to think of any RPGs except PF2e that are new in the last 15 years that are more crunchy than 1e. Maybe Lancer. (This doesn't count relatively minor updates to games like Shadowrun that are significantly older)

D&D 5e for example is less crunchy than an out of the box 1e because it has a consistent set of mechanics and doesn't have rules scattered throughout the DMG with little rhyme or reason. A curated 1e run by a veteran DM might be simpler but one of those doesn't come in the rulebook and both learning to curate and actually curating are part of the complexity. And even curated you've a mishmash of systems that keeps you more complicated than even Daggerheart or anything Powered by the Apocalypse. Never mind anything Fate-ish or Forged in the Dark

Awkward prose, poor organization, and non-intuitive math formulas are not necessarily more crunchy: 5E is more refined in presentation and presents the mathematical process more elegantly, but isn't really less complex than AD&D. "Small number good" is counterintuitive to a lot of people, but is not really complex per se.

 

[Reynard]

Awkward prose, poor organization, and non-intuitive math formulas are not necessarily more crunchy: 5E is more refined in presentation and presents the mathematical process more elegantly, but isn't really less complex than AD&D. "Small number good" is counterintuitive to a lot of people, but is not really complex per se.

A consistent core mechanic across the game's systems is itself inherently less complex than otherwise. Again, 5E has complexity is character build but is very simple in its other systems. AD&D was essentially the opposite.

 

[zerofor]

Generally speaking, if I want genuinely complex game mechanics (which I do sometimes), I'll play a computer game.

 

[Eric V]

I think the communication issue is that rules complexity will, by necessity, conflict with freeform dialogue and thespianism;

Why? Thespianism just gives context and perhaps a circumstance bonus to the Charisma roll.

 

[Reynard]

Generally speaking, if I want genuinely complex game mechanics (which I do sometimes), I'll play a computer game.

Why?

 

[Parmandur]

A consistent core mechanic across the game's systems is itself inherently less complex than otherwise. Again, 5E has complexity is character build but is very simple in its other systems. AD&D was essentially the opposite.

Eh, I'd say it is a wash. 7 out of 10 in both cases.

There are good reasons for the different traits of sub-systems, and they honestly aren't that hard. 3E is way more complex than AD,D, and that had a universal resolution mechanic.

More games should have bespoke subsystems that operate on different mathematical principles, because different things are different.

 

[Deset Gled]

Generally speaking, if I want genuinely complex game mechanics (which I do sometimes), I'll play a computer game.

How do you determine the difference between a VTT and a computer game? I don't know where the line is.