Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[kermit4karate]

....I know a little bit about the subject.

And based on that, I would say that I can 100% guarantee that you were not, in fact, playing 1e RAW.


(Simply because no one, and I mean no one including Gygax played 1e 100% RAW)

Plus, what does that even mean for game so malleable? In the 1e DMG Gary says, "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you..."

I don't think the intent was that everyone had to use the rules on grappling and weapon speed or else...at least I hope not.

 

[kermit4karate]

What's the DC of casting a spell?

Ooh, ooh! -- I know this! It's 10...in Shadowdark!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

We did.

We also bounced off it fast.

But there were even editorials by Gygax that were angry rants against people who didn’t use the rules right.

I do find it odd that so many folks here claim they didn’t use the rules if the book if the game they claimed to play. That was just the norm everywhere I went back in the 80s.

No, you didn't. And no, it wasn't the norm. Look, I don't want to say, "Your lived experience was wrong," but I am going to say that your memory ... is incorrect.

Here- let's start with some of the basics. Real basic stuff.

Did you use Weapon v. AC? That's an easy one.
Did you make sure that Elves could not be Resurrected? And Half-Orcs? Only reincarnation for them (absent a Rod).
Did you consistently use the item saving throw table? When you fell into a 10' pit, did you inter alia roll to see if your potions survived?
How did you handle initiative? Be specific.
What roleplaying rating did your characters normally get, and how did that affect the money you spent to advance in levels?
Did you have all of your different AC values calculated? Attacks from the back or side (dex and shield), multiple attacks (shield), etc.?
Did you ever use the multiple attacks due to weapon speed factors? Did you use weapon speed factors?
Did you correctly do morale checks? If so, how so?
How did you handle missile combat? Were you following the rules regarding firing when others are engaged in melee?
How did you handle combat with helmed/unhelmed opponents?
What rule did you follow in terms of "death" and/or zero hit points?
How did you handle spellcasting in combat? Did you have the casting times memorized?
How did you handle the specific rules regarding (") and the differences between indoor/outdoor and specific activities (incl. spellcasting and combat) that did not follow those distinctions?
Did you apply appropriate modifiers to the accumulation of XP?


Should I keep going? I have played a lot of 1e over the course of decades. I am intimately familiar with the rules. I have never met a single person who has (or who could) play AD&D 100% RAW, and I have never met anyone who is familiar with it who has claimed that they have.

If you are that unicorn, please tell us more! Really and seriously. If nothing else, I'd love to know more about how you handled initiative under RAW.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Plus, what does that even mean for game so malleable? In the 1e DMG Gary says, "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you..."

I don't think the intent was that everyone had to use the rules on grappling and weapon speed or else...at least I hope not.

As I always say, if Gygax writes something you disagree with ... don't worry and keep reading. He'll contradict himself soon enough- sometimes in the same paragraph.

 

[Agamon]

As I always say, if Gygax writes something you disagree with ... don't worry and keep reading. He'll contradict himself soon enough- sometimes in the same paragraph.

Not wrong. Also, most of his "playing wrong" rants were really "stop using 3rd party rules" rants.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Not wrong. Also, most of his "playing wrong" rants were really "stop using 3rd party rules" rants.

This. So much this. I probably have an essay on this somewhere (don't I always), but this is exactly right.

The reason that Gygax was all over the place on this specific issue is actually pretty easy to diagnose...

On the one hand, he was a hobbyist, and he came from a community where people borrowed, and stole, and made games their own. He truly understood that!

On the other hand, he saw the gravy train rolling in, and he didn't want it to stop.

So you get the Gygax who would tell people that it's your game, use your imagination. And also the Gygax who made the Vacuous Grimoire in the DMG specifically as a slam against the Arduin Grimoire.

Ideals and pecuniary interest do not mix well.

ETA-
I know I dealt with this in greater detail, but I briefly touched on the evolution from the "open" design of OD&D to the "modular" design of AD&D in this essay.

D&D General Thread 'Understanding the Design Principles in Early D&D'

Apr 1, 2022

As per usual, I saw something in another thread that captured my attention. Specifically, it was the issue of game design- and how early D&D (OD&D and AD&D, aka 0e and 1e) were designed, and the ways in which they differed greatly from the design principles that we are more familiar with today.

I think that the conversation is useful, but I wanted to do a slightly deeper dive into why TSR-era D&D, and especially 0e and 1e, can be so inscrutable to modern players. I think this can be for three reasons- first, the rules themselves are difficult to parse, especially in comparison to...

• Snarf Zagyg
• Replies: 71
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 
• 

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Not only this, but I see the "simplicity" of D&D 5E has grown the market/base of RPGers tremendously. Most RPGers and gamers are not like us, they don't spend their time on ENWorld or other gaming sites (like BGG). They do other things. Maybe these are "casual" gamers, but they are gamers all the less AND they spend money on games. And that's good. We are not better because we are "serious" gamers.

I think you’re right that 5E’s accessibility expanded the player base in ways that benefit the whole industry. But I’d add that the “casual” audience was always there—it just hadn’t been acknowledged. For decades, D&D defaulted to higher complexity, partly because that’s what the inherited fanbase expected, and partly because no one wanted to risk alienating the players who equated crunch with legitimacy. The result was a self-selecting market: people willing to accept those terms became the visible community, and everyone else stayed outside.

What 5E did differently was finally invite those players in. And once that door was opened, we saw how large that broader audience really was. In turn, that huge base is what makes it possible for more complex games to thrive again—because now there’s enough people looking for different experiences beyond the entry point.

 

[kermit4karate]

This. So much this. I probably have an essay on this somewhere (don't I always), but this is exactly right.

The reason that Gygax was all over the place on this specific issue is actually pretty easy to diagnose...

On the one hand, he was a hobbyist, and he came from a community where people borrowed, and stole, and made games their own. He truly understood that!

On the other hand, he saw the gravy train rolling in, and he didn't want it to stop.

So you get the Gygax who would tell people that it's your game, use your imagination. And also the Gygax who made the Vacuous Grimoire in the DMG specifically as a slam against the Arduin Grimoire.

Ideals and pecuniary interest do not mix well.

Oh, damn though. The Arduin Grimoire was so $&#%* fantastic. Those first three books changed my world at the time, opening my eyes to what an outside perspective could bring to D&D.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That is an excellent point. Thank you.

That said, TTRPG rulebooks are significantly, almost ridiculously, bigger than necessary from a rules presentation perspective. There are many very complex noardgames, for example, that still manage to contain their rules in dozens rather than hundreds of pages. Of course TTRPGs aren't board games, and there are reasons (including simple industry inertia) why TTRPG rulebooks are so oversized. And we should note there are lots of simple games that have high page counts because the designers and authors decided to put effort and attention into non-rules areas.

There's also the question of how many examples and use-in-play sections you're going to do. People's heads exploded when Hero System 5e and 6e came out because of the size, but as Champions Complete (for 6e) showed, the rules system didn't actually need all that space if you trimmed down the really extensive exampels and discussion of the rules (CC is 240 pp, while the combined two volumn 6e books are around 780 pp.) You can argue there's a certain amount of apples to oranges there because the full game includes a lot of GMing advice that the like, but it makes your point that a fairly complex system does not have to be excessively bulky.

 

[kermit4karate]

I think you’re right that 5E’s accessibility expanded the player base in ways that benefit the whole industry. But I’d add that the “casual” audience was always there—it just hadn’t been acknowledged. For decades, D&D defaulted to higher complexity, partly because that’s what the inherited fanbase expected, and partly because no one wanted to risk alienating the players who equated crunch with legitimacy. The result was a self-selecting market: people willing to accept those terms became the visible community, and everyone else stayed outside.

What 5E did differently was finally invite those players in. And once that door was opened, we saw how large that broader audience really was. In turn, that huge base is what makes it possible for more complex games to thrive again—because now there’s enough people looking for different experiences beyond the entry point.

Very well put!