Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[Reynard]

No, you didn't. And no, it wasn't the norm. Look, I don't want to say, "Your lived experience was wrong," but I am going to say that your memory ... is incorrect.

Here- let's start with some of the basics. Real basic stuff.

Did you use Weapon v. AC? That's an easy one.
Did you make sure that Elves could not be Resurrected? And Half-Orcs? Only reincarnation for them (absent a Rod).
Did you consistently use the item saving throw table? When you fell into a 10' pit, did you inter alia roll to see if your potions survived?
How did you handle initiative? Be specific.
What roleplaying rating did your characters normally get, and how did that affect the money you spent to advance in levels?
Did you have all of your different AC values calculated? Attacks from the back or side (dex and shield), multiple attacks (shield), etc.?
Did you ever use the multiple attacks due to weapon speed factors? Did you use weapon speed factors?
Did you correctly do morale checks? If so, how so?
How did you handle missile combat? Were you following the rules regarding firing when others are engaged in melee?
How did you handle combat with helmed/unhelmed opponents?
What rule did you follow in terms of "death" and/or zero hit points?
How did you handle spellcasting in combat? Did you have the casting times memorized?
How did you handle the specific rules regarding (") and the differences between indoor/outdoor and specific activities (incl. spellcasting and combat) that did not follow those distinctions?
Did you apply appropriate modifiers to the accumulation of XP?


Should I keep going? I have played a lot of 1e over the course of decades. I am intimately familiar with the rules. I have never met a single person who has (or who could) play AD&D 100% RAW, and I have never met anyone who is familiar with it who has claimed that they have.

If you are that unicorn, please tell us more! Really and seriously. If nothing else, I'd love to know more about how you handled initiative under RAW.

This list, by the way, is the kind of thing that makes me believe VTTs can help bring back crunchy systems. most of those things can be automated, which means they will get used, which means they will matter, which means people will actually care about them in character generation and game prep.

 

[kermit4karate]

This list, by the way, is the kind of thing that makes me believe VTTs can help bring back crunchy systems. most of those things can be automated, which means they will get used, which means they will matter, which means people will actually care about them in character generation and game prep.

We already have that though. It was a game called Pool of Radiance.

 

[Reynard]

We already have that though. It was a game called Pool of Radiance.

I really wish folks would stop making those comparisons. Even a great co-op CRPG, even one with an accessible level editor, is still not a (V)TTRPG.

 

[Deset Gled]

Was this tongue-in-cheek? VTTs aren't run with algorithms and preset PC/NPC conversations.

I'm questioning where the two crossover.

It's easy to look at current Roll20 and say "that's a VTT". It's easy to look at Legend of Zelda and say "that's a video game". But we're discussing the future, not the present.

I have absolutely played TTRPGs where you walk up to a guard, and the DM decides they refuse to interact with you. Or the game is pulling from a module, where the NPC has certain information, you have to ask the right questions to get it, and they serve little other purpose. Yes, the DM can improvise, but they are under no obligation to have every NPC drop everything they're doing and spend all day interacting with the PCs.

OTOH, there are games video games where NPCs have thousands of dialog possibilities - much more than what some DMs or modules would allow. There are already games like Fortnite that have implemented AI conversions with NPCs.

So, no, you can't just say preset conversations are the difference between VTTs and video games. There are gray areas. A VTT with an AI DM is one. And a roleplay-server like NoPixel or No Ego is another.

 

[Parmandur]

The problem isn't that AD&D isn't "small number good". It's that it's "sometimes a small number is good and other times a large number is good." Sometimes you're on a roll high, other times you're on a roll under. Sometimes it's a d20, sometimes a d100. The system shock and resurrection survival saving throws being found in an entirely different book to the save Vs death or poison is poor organisation. But that they use entirely different mechanics would gratuitously add to complexity no matter where they were

Somewhat, honestly don't find a few different formulas to be all that much, each is coherent in itself. 3E is more of a headache overall, nothing in AD,D equals the pain of grappling in 3E.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This list, by the way, is the kind of thing that makes me believe VTTs can help bring back crunchy systems. most of those things can be automated, which means they will get used, which means they will matter, which means people will actually care about them in character generation and game prep.

Well, kinda sorta. Look, some of the things on the list can be automated. Obviously, accounting for different AC values depending on the number of attackers and where the attackers are (or Weapon v. AC or weapon speed factors) would be easier to automate.

But some of the things on the list were included because either almost no one played with them for a good reason, they were only rarely used, the rules weren't actually known, or because the rules literally could not be applied as written. And I could keep going (unfortunately .... I have devoted at least 28.3% of my brain to OD&D and 1e rules that have no real application even to those games).

Personally, I think that games in general have retreated from the "high-water" crunch mark of the '80s. But ... in a different way. A game like Phoenix Command is trivial for a VTT to handle. I'm not sure that the hobby, in general, is looking for that kind of advanced purely tactical crunch that we already see in computer games.

Earlier, you said that you didn't understand why crunchy combat would take away from roleplaying. Well, it doesn't ... yet, it also does? When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you have 95% of the rules devoted to tactically exciting combat, and everything else is just, "Talk and maybe something happens," then the game itself is likely to end up with players resorting, as much as possible, to .... the tactically exciting combat, with "everything else" just being small bits that happen to occur in between the tactically exciting parts.

Which is great, if that's what you're into! But I think it will funnel games in a certain direction.

 

[Parmandur]

You seem to be ignoring some complexity and emphasizing other sorts, to the point that I don't actually think we are using the same definition of complexity.

Well, that just it: complexity is multidimensional, not a linear scale. Some complexity is more irritating to some people than it is to others (like the claim that Fate is heavier than GURPS made in this thread....)

AD&D and 5E are different: both are complex. I'd say on balance about the same level of complexity, with many RPGs being more complex than either and many many more being less compelx than either.

 

[kermit4karate]

I really wish folks would stop making those comparisons. Even a great co-op CRPG, even one with an accessible level editor, is still not a (V)TTRPG.

Was meant tongue in cheek.

 

[Agamon]

I'm questioning where the two crossover.

It's easy to look at current Roll20 and say "that's a VTT". It's easy to look at Legend of Zelda and say "that's a video game". But we're discussing the future, not the present.

I have absolutely played TTRPGs where you walk up to a guard, and the DM decides they refuse to interact with you. Or the game is pulling from a module, where the NPC has certain information, you have to ask the right questions to get it, and they serve little other purpose. Yes, the DM can improvise, but they are under no obligation to have every NPC drop everything they're doing and spend all day interacting with the PCs.

OTOH, there are games video games where NPCs have thousands of dialog possibilities - much more than what some DMs or modules would allow. There are already games like Fortnite that have implemented AI conversions with NPCs.

So, no, you can't just say preset conversations are the difference between VTTs and video games. There are gray areas. A VTT with an AI DM is one. And a roleplay-server like NoPixel or No Ego is another.

All I can say is, sorry that you've experienced this. I wouldn't spend more than one session in a game like that.

And a video game would be much preferred over AI slop.

 

[kermit4karate]

All I can say is, sorry that you've experienced this. I wouldn't spend more than one session in a game like that.

And a video game would be much preferred over AI slop.

Hey, AI slop is a lazy way to dismiss what AI can already do, much less where it's headed in the next few years.