Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[Reynard]

What category do you put universal tactical options (i.e. ones that don't require a special character component to access) in?

Off the top of my head, "Fiddly" but I could see an argument that it is its own category -- or, at least, a Lots of Detailed Subsystems Complexity category.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Off the top of my head, "Fiddly" but I could see an argument that it is its own category -- or, at least, a Lots of Detailed Subsystems Complexity category.

If you consider them kind of a subsystem as a set, I can see that. Other than grappling (which often turns into its own at least moderately complex thing) I'm not sure most of the ones I know are super-detailed, but then, I may have a different standard to what that is than some people.

 

[mamba]

How about Shadowdark? Because I see it referred to as rules-lite, and I kinda think it isn't too crunchy. It's also basically a hybrid of a few different D&D versions with a handful of additional rules.

I am not that familiar with it, but from what I gather it is less crunchy than any version of D&D (1e to 5e,). Whether that makes it rules lite, I do not know

 

[mamba]

I do find it odd that so many folks here claim they didn’t use the rules if the book if the game they claimed to play. That was just the norm everywhere I went back in the 80s.

I don't know, when I got the 1e books, I decided to ignore maybe half of the rules on my first read-through before even starting a game, because they were just too much added complexity for no apparent gain (and possibly some detrimental effects...) as far as I was concerned.

I don't think I ever met anyone who played by the full rules.

 

[Reynard]

How about Shadowdark? Because I see it referred to as rules-lite, and I kinda think it isn't too crunchy. It's also basically a hybrid of a few different D&D versions with a handful of additional rules.

I think Shadowdark qualifies as rules light, with its approach to both PCs and monsters. It does have lots of subsystems, tho. They are all simple but they are there.

 

[mamba]

It's advancing well beyond the slop stage and is already such an accurate simulation of a real person that I don't believe most people can even tell when they're interacting with an AI

that does not feel like progress, have you met most people? When I look at what is going on in the world AI being as misinformed, ignorant, and biased as people means we should switch it off and start over

 

[mamba]

Their predictive ability isn't like a video game where an NPC pulls from 100 different possible responses to an inquiry.

the game is not predictive at all

They're pulling the most apt next word in their response from a billion similar inquiries.

At what point is the dataset of possible responses so large that it effectively simulates a human's free choice?

never, if anything it makes it harder to predict what the correct next word / response would be.

I mean, if you want to simulate a random conversation with no real result in mind, maybe it works for that, but that is not what AI outside of spamming Twitter is for

 

[mamba]

I've never seen them. Are they still accessible?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/373165/arduin-trilogy

 

[mamba]

I think the game really needed to be simpler than 3e or 4e, but that WotC went too far the other direction and over simplified 5e. Games like Daggerheart which are more complex than 5e, but less so than 3e or 4e are hitting that sweet spot I think.

that is entirely personal, I think 5e should be slightly simpler

 

[kermit4karate]

the game is not predictive at all


never, if anything it makes it harder to predict what the correct next word / response would be.

I mean, if you want to simulate a random conversation with no real result in mind, maybe it works for that, but that is not what AI outside of spamming Twitter is for

FYI, moved this to a different thread per mod request to get it out of this one.

Thread 'How long before VTTs support TTRPGs with AI GMs?'

Sep 30, 2025

I don't know how much you've messed around trying to play TTRPGs with AIs like ChatGPT yet, but the experience is becoming shockingly realistic, and now with ChatGPTs voice mode you click a single button once and can then carry on a lengthy back-and-forth conversation with the AI using completely natural language. It's generally easier to communicate with than most humans, first because it always defers to you during interruptions. It immediately stops talking when the human it's conversing with starts speaking, which is something most humans won't do.

I tend to think we'll see at least...

• kermit4karate
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