D&D 5E Will there be such a game as D&D Next?

I agree. I think it is probably because hero points and HP already a lot of space. The amount of HP you get in D&D is basically like having hero points that are locked in place (from a purely mechanical point if view). Where D&D differs from a more cinematic game is virtually everyone else has varying degrees of hero points in that form as well. If it were pure cinematic. It would probably reserve HP over 8-12 for major villains and npcs.

I think it would be interesting to consider the option. I think back a while in an early "flat bonus" discussion (one that came a while before DDN, though it got reprised later) that was one line of discussion. It was determined that a flat system requires a LOT of hit points and damage at high levels. One obvious option to keep damage outputs in check was to instead of heaping on hit points just have 'hero points' that would deflect attacks. There were various arguments back and forth on how well that would work and what sort of feel you might get. One thing that would obviously be possible would be a reduction of hit points to purely physical damage indicator. That has some obvious uses, but it generally indicates a flatter sort of system overall. Something in-between would work of course, but it does make the flavoring of the different elements even more open to interpretation.
 

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I think it would be interesting to consider the option. I think back a while in an early "flat bonus" discussion (one that came a while before DDN, though it got reprised later) that was one line of discussion. It was determined that a flat system requires a LOT of hit points and damage at high levels. One obvious option to keep damage outputs in check was to instead of heaping on hit points just have 'hero points' that would deflect attacks. There were various arguments back and forth on how well that would work and what sort of feel you might get. One thing that would obviously be possible would be a reduction of hit points to purely physical damage indicator. That has some obvious uses, but it generally indicates a flatter sort of system overall. Something in-between would work of course, but it does make the flavoring of the different elements even more open to interpretation.

if I were going to make D&D Cinematic edition I would probably emphasize HP as hero points (allowing you to spend them for tremendous feats and avoidance as well). I would keep the HP scaling for pcs but drastically lower HP for most npcs and creatures (with exceptions for major npcs and threats who would come in a few varieties 1/4 HP, 1/2 and full ---others would just have one HP). I would also tweak bab so you hit more often but keep the numbers and DCs from getting too out of hand. That would at least be where I started.
 

It's going to take a LOT of modules to be able to support everyone's desired aesthetics and gameplay wishes for healing.

Proportional healing or non-proportional healing?
Full healing after battle? I mean, some 4e people have no issues with a wound system, and some old-school people assume that their should be availability of wands and healing magic to heal after every fight.
Scale of recovery time? (Anywhere from minutes to weeks.)
Some sort of wound/death spiral?
In-combat healing or out-of-combat healing only?
Relative weight given to inspirational healing?

I think some of the issues can't be just "optional-rule" modules, they affect the very definition of certain classes and how to create the overall combat mechanics. Plus, these issues matter to people, they affect the overall aesthetic of the entire game. Tricky, tricky.

From the start I've believed that they are building Next around a flawed premise, that being that there is a single core D&D experience we can all agree on and that a 5E built on that single foundation can please the entire D&D community. It's a nice thought, but the reality is that it just doesn't exist.

The pace of healing and how hp works is one of the core foundations, and one that there is a deep conflict over. I find it interesting that they've chosen to embrace ambiguity as opposed to offering multiple solutions.
 

No kidding! ;)

The thing is, it is a fundamental part of the game too. Once you decide on a role for healing and a preferred mode for it to work in then it impacts all of the other elements of the game. You need to look at all the spells, items, powers, feats, etc that deal with hit points or healing and make sure they are either inappropriate or that their scaling is correct. I think its possible to do that, but clearly supporting a couple of sets of options there would be pretty burdensome in the long run. This is why I fear that ultimately DDN WILL become "one game", it will just drop all pretense of actively supporting anything but a default play style and option set. Any other eventuality honestly seems remote to me. Especially considering its hard to see DDN being some sort of giant instant success that can afford to support 6 different modes of play. WotC is going to earn and pay for every inch they get this time around, lol.

I think both Next itself and its defenders just don't get the significance of how the game does this. It really informs everything the game does, and you can't just arbitrarily change it and expect the rest of the game to keep on working as it did before.
 



No it doesn't. These tweets were supposed to be evidence of anti-4E bias, and therein lies the problem. A preferred or chosen course does not require an aversion to or bias against another. I have not seen, in that tweet, or any other communication by any 5E designer at WotC, any evidence of an anti-4E bias. I've seen absolutely nothing from WotC that displays an aversion, an "allergy", a sense of "toxicity", or any other negative connotation.

I ask for evidence. Facts.

Is there anything else that shows this bias, or is that it?

Anyone?

14 straight months of neglect is proof enough. Tweets aren't proving a point, they reinforce a point.
 

I think both Next itself and its defenders just don't get the significance of how the game does this. It really informs everything the game does, and you can't just arbitrarily change it and expect the rest of the game to keep on working as it did before.

I'm avoiding saying X, or Y, or Z is IMPOSSIBLE. I'm certainly sure that it is relatively simple in a basic sense to swap out one set of healing mechanics for another. It is at least difficult to see how A) the rest of the game can be tweaked easily to an adjusted healing system, and B) how the adventures can be useful in significantly different sorts of game.

In a sense the adventure question can just never be answered, but it does impose some limits on how much utility DDN has to whomever there aren't adventures written for. Still, I haven't found a D&D adventure pre-written that I was going to run in anything like its presented form in 20 years at least. That isn't true for everyone though.
[MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], its hard to say how that would work without knowing what sort of assumptions there would be about hit points. In other words what do level 1 PCs start with? I'm not sure how you would get tension within an encounter. If I have enough hit points to burn on various heroic actions etc then at the start of the first encounter of the day I'd imagine my PC would be pretty loaded with hit points. It sounds like in general the PCs would have more hit points than the monsters do.

Consider how this works now in 4e, the PCs have LESS hit points than the monsters. They can access HS, which gives them a good bit higher daily total. Its pretty hard for a single PC in a given fight to access more than say 4 HS though, and that is digging far into their daily total unless they're something like a Cavalier or a Warden. The point is the PCs are more likely to reach critical hit point levels quickly than the monsters. Generally the party has to focus fire on monsters to dent them a lot, where even the lower damage output MM1 monsters can, in low heroic, easily bloody several PCs in a round, maybe even one per monster that hits with its encounter power.

If the PCs have say 4x the HP of the average monster, then in encounter one of the day they'll be in no danger at all, where the 4e PCs CAN certainly go down (and do often IME). Obviously HP will be a valuable resource and would dwindle as the day goes by and you'd be forced into management choices between using a 'hero point' and being able to keep taking damage, etc. The day would be more like one big 4e encounter though.

Frankly I think this is almost what Mike is thinking about when he talks about DDN adventures being "just built of a number of rounds" vs built up out of encounters. However DDN oddly lacks the key machinery, large hit point pools with HP used as a resource, or a hero point system that deflects blows, or something. In theory if you have a limiting resource like that and powers that (mostly) tap into that pool then you could do a fairly cinematic game, but it will feel VERY different from D&D. The PCs will start out plot armored to the gills and only towards the end of the 'day' (which could be one big encounter) will they start to feel worn down and really threatened. Most systems of this type also include some sort of 'body damage' or 'wound' type system to re-inject immediate threat (IE something that allows for the possibility of a lucky attack ganking a character right off or seriously debuffing them for a long time). Again, I feel like that sort of mechanic puts pacing back in the hands of the dice, and dice should IMHO never be in charge of anything unless the DM wants them to be.
 

I Agree with this. You're right, Healing in DDN definitely needs to be looked at hard. I don't think it's right yet either.

Yeah, well, I don't think it is wrong either, it is just working in service of a different agenda. I'm not sure that the devs have really grappled with it fully. See, the odd thing is, thinking about my last post where I referred to Mike's statements on adventures being "just a lot of rounds of combat" (in terms of pacing, in other words you can just break up one big fight into 4 or whatever and it is all about the same in DDN) that DDN needs work in that area. The Hit Dice in that case should actually work IN COMBAT. In fact, DDN should ELIMINATE the short rest as a mechanic if it is serious about that sort of adventure design.

If you take a 4e encounter as a starting point you could basically design DDN's resource mechanics around that as a model of a DDN ADVENTURE. Hit Dice then are in-adventure healing, and your various 'powers' become simply daily or at-will. Obviously it raises 5MWD questions, but those always exist to some extent. You could even bring in a very mild encounter mechanic that was logically a lot like the way a PC can maybe get off in a corner during a fight and guzzle a potion, it costs you, but its a trade off. Of course then you have logic to drop wandering monsters back into the game, etc, and you're likely to wind up all the way back at 1e eventually. There could be a space in between, but again it won't be much like any current edition and DDN's mechanics so far are not suitable for it.
 


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