Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

[Lylandra]

Okay... let me throw in one little thought:

The ability to switch between male and female elf form doesn't make these elves transexual or transgender. I'd rather call it an extreme form of genderfluidity.

Being trans means a person whose gender doesn't match with the sex they were born with. But these people are actually both, mentally and physically, depending on their choice. They are not mismatched by nature, they are omni-matched.

 

[devincutler]

The metaphor is pretty inane. Particularly in the context of a thread about whether a particular type of trans character as introduced by MToF should exist. Whether you want to witness something is irrelevant. If that isn’t what you are referring to, then I question what the point of bringing it up in this thread was.

It was in response to Cosmic Kid's post. I did not just drop it out of the blue. Maybe reread his post.

 

[Pauln6]

The mammaries on the female elves are a dead give away.

Like dragonborn, I suppose.

 

[Schmoe]

Why are we talking about gay smooching now? That’s a completely different spectrum from gender. There is no gay smooching required to include transgender elves. There’s also no transgender elves required to include sex changing elves.

Amen! Plus, beans give me gas.

 

[TheSword]

It was in response to Cosmic Kid's post. I did not just drop it out of the blue. Maybe reread his post.

Maybe you should re-read it. Cosmic Kids post criticized people who just didn’t like being around Gay People. They made them feel ‘icky’. Not watching them get it on... just being around them. You then followed that with your bean eating analogy which appears to be justifying that behaviour.

 

[pming]

HIya.

Who said anything about deep and meaningful conversations? Isn’t enough that they just exist?

When you say designers including gay characters and trans elements in D&D products is a ‘slippery slope’... what do you mean? A slippery slope to where?

If a large number of people are gay, why is it unreasonable that one or possibly two NPCs in a 250 page adventure be gay? We’re not talking about gay story lines, just a character that happens to be gay.

Why does adding a character who happens to be gay into a story mean you’re bringing ‘real life’ into your game but a hetrosexual character is just fine? What issue is that forcing you to address? That Gay people exist?

Why does playing a gay/trans character mean you’re acting out a ‘psycho-drama’ or dealing with ‘problems in your life’ 5e seems to be firmly in the camp of having these things firmly in the background rather than being major plot issues.

There are lots of questions that arise out of your last post. It isn’t for me to answer them but the fact that these questions even exists suggest that many posters in these threads consider being gay or trans as being something other than normal. I like that D&D is part of trying to address issue in a small way.

Wow. Uh, we went from "This is a new playable PC race that can change their sex" to "Why is it unreasonable that one or two NPC's are gay in a huge adventure?" in the space of how many posts? O_O

I don't want to get into it any more because I know when I talk to...well...I'm not going to give my opinion on it after this post. Suffice it to say...I don't care if an NPC or ten are gay. I could care less insofar as actual 'caring'. ( I'd "care" in that it is likely an abnormal representation, but I can change that if needed; I won't loose any sleep over it). I also don't care if my "non-caring'ness" upsets people. If someone gets upset when I say "He/She's gay? Ok. Whatever. Doesn't matter. Nobody cares. What CLASS are they? That's important. Sexuality? Not", it's not my problem. It's about as important in life as someone saying that they are big Calgary Flames (Canadian hockey team) fan. The only people that care about someone being a Calgary fan are other hockey fans...especially an Edmonton Oilers fan. The VAST majority of people who watch hockey are just regular ol' folks watching hockey. "Fanatical Fanboi's" is an "extreme" version of a 'regular' hockey fan. The VAST majority of gay/bi people I've known or met were NOT "extreme"; they were just regular folks who preferred the same sex (or both).

The only extreme reaction I've seen any of them was one gay guy I worked with; he absolutely hated gay guys who "flaunted it all over the place" (you know, the 'flamers'...not the hockey team, btw ). I think he said that those who are most vocal and in-your-face about their sexuality were the most intolerant and most prone to jumping to the "homophobic" slur the moment they didn't like someone and that these guys gave "gay" a bad name/rep. That if he...a GAY MAN...made a gay joke or said something slightly off-colour, they would scream, yell and call him every name in the book, then finish it off with assault by throwing a drink in his face. THOSE are the intolerant people. Not the religious guy who says "I don't support or agree with being homosexual".

See? We're not even talking about a freaking fantasy RPG any more! Why? ...SLIPPERY SLOPE!...

I'm willing to bet that's two more people you know who feel "icky" around gay people than people you know who feel "icky" around, say, lefties. So I'm gonna say there's still an issue there.

First, I'm not sure what you mean by lefties. Handedness? Politics? Men who hang their...uh...you know..."member" down the left pant leg?

Second, no matter what definition you are using for "lefties", why do you think there would be an "issue"? Are people not allowed to have opinions or preferences different from yours? I don't get it.


At any rate...I'm out. This conversation/debate has SLIPPED on down the SLOPE from being about a fantasy game of imagination into...something I can't say or I'll get banned, probably. I don't know. The rules are pretty dang vague on this if you ask me. So I'm out.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Charlaquin]

Okay... let me throw in one little thought:

The ability to switch between male and female elf form doesn't make these elves transexual or transgender. I'd rather call it an extreme form of genderfluidity.

Being trans means a person whose gender doesn't match with the sex they were born with. But these people are actually both, mentally and physically, depending on their choice. They are not mismatched by nature, they are omni-matched.

I'll see your "being able to change sex doesn't make them transgender" and raise you "nor does it stop them from being transgender."

The idea that being transgender means your gender "doesn't match" the sex you were "born with" is a very cisnormative way of framing it. Sex and gender are different spectra (just as sexuality is different from either), so no gender inherently "matches" or "doesn't match" any given set of sex characteristics. The associations between them are culturally constructed, so a better way of framing it would be to say that being transgender is about identifying with a gender that is different from the one you were assigned at birth.

In real life human culture, we are typically assigned genders based on sex characteristics, but in a culture where some members are born with the ability to change sex characteristics simply by meditating for a few hours, perhaps there would be different criteria. They may have more and/or different culturally-defined genders than humans have, or they may not have a concept of gender at all. And in any of those cases, an elf with or without Corellon's blessing may or may not identify with the gender they were assigned by their parents or the lack thereof.

 

[TheSword]

HIya.



Wow. Uh, we went from "This is a new playable PC race that can change their sex" to "Why is it unreasonable that one or two NPC's are gay in a huge adventure?" in the space of how many posts? O_O

I don't want to get into it any more because I know when I talk to...well...I'm not going to give my opinion on it after this post. Suffice it to say...I don't care if an NPC or ten are gay. I could care less insofar as actual 'caring'. ( I'd "care" in that it is likely an abnormal representation, but I can change that if needed; I won't loose any sleep over it). I also don't care if my "non-caring'ness" upsets people. If someone gets upset when I say "He/She's gay? Ok. Whatever. Doesn't matter. Nobody cares. What CLASS are they? That's important. Sexuality? Not", it's not my problem. It's about as important in life as someone saying that they are big Calgary Flames (Canadian hockey team) fan. The only people that care about someone being a Calgary fan are other hockey fans...especially an Edmonton Oilers fan. The VAST majority of people who watch hockey are just regular ol' folks watching hockey. "Fanatical Fanboi's" is an "extreme" version of a 'regular' hockey fan. The VAST majority of gay/bi people I've known or met were NOT "extreme"; they were just regular folks who preferred the same sex (or both).

The only extreme reaction I've seen any of them was one gay guy I worked with; he absolutely hated gay guys who "flaunted it all over the place" (you know, the 'flamers'...not the hockey team, btw ). I think he said that those who are most vocal and in-your-face about their sexuality were the most intolerant and most prone to jumping to the "homophobic" slur the moment they didn't like someone and that these guys gave "gay" a bad name/rep. That if he...a GAY MAN...made a gay joke or said something slightly off-colour, they would scream, yell and call him every name in the book, then finish it off with assault by throwing a drink in his face. THOSE are the intolerant people. Not the religious guy who says "I don't support or agree with being homosexual".

See? We're not even talking about a freaking fantasy RPG any more! Why? ...SLIPPERY SLOPE!...




First, I'm not sure what you mean by lefties. Handedness? Politics? Men who hang their...uh...you know..."member" down the left pant leg?

Second, no matter what definition you are using for "lefties", why do you think there would be an "issue"? Are people not allowed to have opinions or preferences different from yours? I don't get it.


At any rate...I'm out. This conversation/debate has SLIPPED on down the SLOPE from being about a fantasy game of imagination into...something I can't say or I'll get banned, probably. I don't know. The rules are pretty dang vague on this if you ask me. So I'm out.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I appreciate that you want to bow out of the conversation. Why do people so often follow that statement with something provocative?

I think you slid down your slope all by yourself by criticizing decisions designers made by introducing so called ‘real world’ elements. I’m not sure what your friends comments on gay behavior have to any of the discussions up to this point. I suspect you just don’t get it.

Being gay or trans isn’t like being a fan. If you don’t understand that it is not surprising that there’s a disconnect in the conversation.

The rest of us are firmly talking about this subject in the context of PC’s, NPC’s and options in d&d.

 

[psychophipps]

Been thinking about this one today. I have a few thoughts:
1) Kinda digging how it adds a layer of "otherness" to the Elves in general. We need to separate Elves into something else, not just pointy-earred human beef and/or cheesecakes with cool racial abilities.
2) Makes me think about how this could happen physically. The "working parts" aren't overly large, but the major structural changes like the skeletal changes between men and women for stabilization when pregnant, etc would probably mean their baseline skeleton would start as more "middle of the road".
3) Mammaries and other secondary sexual characteristics probably wouldn't develop until pregnancy or would remain far smaller than typically shown in the trending "elf babe" pictures.
4) Just being hermaphroditic is certainly an option.
5) They could still choose their "gender" and emphasise their preferred sex through social customs and dress.
6) That said, not being "locked down" at birth means they they wouldn't be as likely to have a culture of sexual exploitation as participants can swap to the other sex at will. Pretty cool stuff that would dramatically assist in maintaining harmony in their societies.
7) The outright rejection of this "blessing" by the Drow reinforces the Fear and Power(tm) paradigm and the want, no the NEED, for sexual exploitation so their society can function. That it is flipped from the male sexed exploiting the female sexed to the female sexed exploiting the male sexed doesn't make it any less horrible. Could have some cool storytelling elements here if your group can handle it maturely.
All in all, once you dig a bit deeper than, "Umm...where did that penis come from?" and potentially "Eww?" it can lead to some pretty interesting roleplaying potential. It also does a pretty good job of calling our collective real-life B.S. to the carpet if you feel like putting some social justice into your games.

 

[devincutler]

Maybe you should re-read it. Cosmic Kids post criticized people who just didn’t like being around Gay People. They made them feel ‘icky’. Not watching them get it on... just being around them. You then followed that with your bean eating analogy which appears to be justifying that behaviour.

And how would these people who are uncomfortable around gay people know they are gay without it involving a PDA? I understand you can know about colleagues and family and the like, but just being in a public place you'd have no idea. So I assumed these Cosmic Kid's hypothetical people would be reacting to PDAs.