Wisdom = Willpower... huh?

[Knight Otu]

Essentially, the idea seems to be that Wisdom "filters" outside influences, while Charisma "creates" such influences.

Intelligence determines your ability to navigate the world and your mind. (Mental Dexterity)
Wisdom determines the impact the world has on your mind. (Mental Constitution)
Charisma determines the impact your mind has on the world. (Mental Strength)

 

[jdrakeh]

Oh, I know.... but all the other stats (and I'm just talking about stats here) follow their real-world definitions.

Wisdom does, as well, except for the mention of willpower. There's no mystery here. The designers just associated willpower with the existing stat that seemed to represent it best. I assume that this is because they thought creating an entire stat only for willpower would have been an even larger and more noticeable exception (since no single aspect of D&D has ever been that refined).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Has anyone thought about putting Willpower under Charisma? Charisma is personal magentism, leadership ability, etc., but it's also sense of self and strength of personality - that's why constructs and mindless undead have Cha 1. Having a high Charisma means you have a strong personality, a strong sense of self, and thus a strong will. It would make a lot more sense than Wisdom, IMO.

It works like that in 4e (where a high Charisma boosts your Will defense). However, it doesn't suit many characters.

Does anyone watch Lost? Sawyer is charismatic. He does not have high willpower. There are people like that in real life, too.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What word would you suggest instead?

all the other stats (and I'm just talking about stats here) follow their real-world definitions.

No they don't. The dictionary definition of charisma doesn't mention physical attractiveness and dexterity doesn't mean reaction time.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The attributes are sort of misnamed all encompassing things, yeah.
Figure they decided on:
Power (phys=str, mental=cha)
Speed (phys=dex, mental=int)
Resistance (phys=con, mental=wis)

Then they tried to assign other features to these things. Folks have always had a lot of issues with Charisma, but Call of Cthulhu's "Power" attribute has been my definition of it ever since I read it.
Wisdom as Willpower has always been present, my 1e books are too buried right now, but did Wisdom actually reflect "perception" in 1e? (In a mechanical sense)

 

[pawsplay]

I would hesitate to make Cha the new Willpower stat, not because it's not related, but because it's possibly to be quite charismatic and be a total mess. In real life, what we think of as willpower would encompass four stats:

Wisdom - to be self aware and withstand anxiety and ambiguity
Intelligence - to exercise forethought and to focus
Charisma - bravado and forcefulness
Constitution - to keep going no matter what

Further, willpower has an element of experience, too. Willpower includes self-confidence.

 

[RFisher]

Um. It's not even slang, or jargon - there's NO mention of it.

Um. When you use the word “wisdom” whilst talking about D&D ability scores, it is jargon.

 

[doppelganger]

Um. When you use the word “wisdom” whilst talking about D&D ability scores, it is jargon.

Yup. Especially since it comes with its own in-game definition which does not match its dictionary definition. This is a textbook case of jargon.

 

[Fifth Element]

Further, willpower has an element of experience, too. Willpower includes self-confidence.

Self-confidence falls under Charisma, I would say.

Obviously Charisma = Willpower does not work for every character. But neither does Wisdom = Willpower. I think 4E does a decent job of it by allowing the greater of two ability scores to modify the defence.

 

[Kerrick]

No they don't. The dictionary definition of charisma doesn't mention physical attractiveness and dexterity doesn't mean reaction time.

Not sure what dictionary you're using, but mine does. Dexterity doesn't come right out and say "reaction time" but it says several times "agility" and "readiness and grace in physical activity".

When you use the word “wisdom” whilst talking about D&D ability scores, it is jargon.

I was talking about the dictionary definition.

Wisdom as Willpower has always been present, my 1e books are too buried right now, but did Wisdom actually reflect "perception" in 1e?

1E didn't have skills as such - those weren't introduced till 2E. In 2E, the only "perception" type skills we had were direction sense and weather sense; both were modified by Wis. Wisdom as perception I can totally get - it's the ability to process information you see/hear/sense, even if it doesn't register on the conscious mind. It's intuitiveness.

It works like that in 4e (where a high Charisma boosts your Will defense).

I didn't know that. I thought that saves in 4E could be modified by two different stats, though?