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D&D 5E Wish & Simulacrum

jasper

Rotten DM
Can I cast Wish to duplicate the Simulacrum spell and then have the simulacrum cast Wish to do a non-spell effect like give the party resistance and then the Simulacrum will take the hit for the 33% chance of neve being able to cast Wish again correct? I mean the logic seems solid unless I am missing something.
Ok, I was reviewing my AL notes. Simulacrum costs 1,500 gp to cast. And 100 gp per hp to repair. Not going to worrying about how your found the local Zales and got the rubies. Wish allows you to duplicate any spell under 9th so I can't say nay by the first paragraph. Bullet point one allows up 25,000 gp object . So can't say nay either.
So far the 33% is not even in sight. You wish for mini Rocco you got him. However he duplicate at second after you wish. So he missing that spell slot. So Mini Rocco can't cast wish.
But say I am a nnn nnn um Nice DM. And either allow Mini Rocco to dup at this morning or you have a ring of wishes.
Mini Rocco wishes for Necrotic resistance for the brave crew of the Minnow.
Mini Rocco takes 9d10 necrotic damage and I am grabbing the d10s that are hot. Since, in AL we use avg HP. Reckless Rocco 20 Wizard of the frozen Blizzard (He worked his way through Hogwarts by working part time at Dairy Queen.) May have between 82-102 HP. So Mini Rocco has 42 to 51 HP. So Mini Rocco is not feeling too hot. Did you remember a simulacrum is a 7th level ILLUSION.
Roll the 33% chance for your PC NOT Mini Rocco. On % dice. The ones that got 10-00 and 0-9 set.
If you pass congrads, everyone the skipper too you have necrotic resistance. Why did I make your wizard roll? Because you trying to cheese the system.
****
The 33% is not problem. During my time I have two pcs fail. This just add flavor to your pc.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Can you not see why that's bad design?

Perhaps a better question is to as how much I care about the, "design," as compared to other aspects of the game experience at the point when this comes into play.

I care not a whit about balance vs monsters. I can just crank up the power on them.

I am not at all convinced it steals thunder from other PCs at that point.
 

Frozenstep

Explorer
Perhaps a better question is to as how much I care about the, "design," as compared to other aspects of the game experience at the point when this comes into play.

I care not a whit about balance vs monsters. I can just crank up the power on them.

I am not at all convinced it steals thunder from other PCs at that point.

Ok, let's talk game experience.

Party A has no wizard. The DM throws what they were gonna throw at them.

Party B has a wizard, and they take simulacrum. The DM cranks up the difficulty on them to match. Due to bad management or bad luck, simulacrum isn't used effectively enough, causing the higher difficulty of the encounters to kill the party.

Bad design leads to bad experience.

I'm not saying this is guaranteed to happen, but simulacrum is so many levels of finnicky that it causes problems for both the player and the DM, and yet the power promised makes it hard to ignore.
 


Fanaelialae

Legend
For your first point, you can keep making new simulacrums. This becomes a problem depending on how your campaign is paced. If you got fights every day and no time to spare for making a simulacrum, then sure. Give the spellcaster literally one free day? Boom, new simulacrum. Unless you choke the resources of the party, I guess, but then you start getting into annoying territory that a single spell shouldn't force you into.
Pacing is important to the game (or at least the threat of pacing, but that's tangential). If you allow the party a long rest after every encounter, for example, you have much bigger issues than Simulacrum, at much earlier levels than the spell is available.

IMO, a pacing issue is a pacing issue, not an issue specific to Simulacrum.
There was a famous quote on GITP I remember. "Thou shall not balance features by making them annoying to use." That's what I feel like simulacrum does. If you don't start creating situations for players with this spell in mind, it gets stronger then it should. Bad design.
I disagree that it is limited by annoyance. It is limited by resources: by default time and gold (or at 17+, alternately by the opportunity cost of your only 9th level spell slot).
It's not just double spells, it's double concentration, and it's for every round that you and the simulacrum survive. It's another reaction, so it can be another counterspeller. It's another user of magic items, and works great with things like spell scrolls, beads of fireball, wand of lightning bolt.
Sure, but the key here is while the Simulacrum survives. They are incredibly delicate.

Even taking an ultra tough 200 HP barbarian, you end up with a simulacrum with only 100 HP. That sounds like a lot until you realize that the wizard probably has around that many HP at those levels. But he's got rage, which means half damage, right? Technically, but only for a very limited number of fights since he can't recover uses.

Copying someone who is actually worth copying (such as the caster) is likely to result in a simulacrum with the durability of wet cardboard. That's before you take into account that it can be one shot by a third level spell (dispel magic).

At the levels that Simulacrum becomes available at, if you can't use the high powered monsters available to you to reach the back line, you are going to have difficulty challenging the party even without simulacrum.
Not to mention you don't have to use it on yourself. Party knows a friendly and powerful npc? You better come up with a reason why they're too busy to spare 12 hours to be duplicated. Have more than one NPC like that? Now it starts to feel targeted. That's an annoying position to be put in as a DM. Even without a powerful npc, other party members can sometimes be good targets, especially strong archers.
Which is completely within the DM's purview to veto. It's like asking the CEO of a Fortune 500 company to pose for you for 12 hours for something that you could use to then commit identity fraud against him or her. Good luck. IMC, if you're on incredibly good terms with them they might do you the solid - ONCE.

A DM who permits the kinds of shenanigans you're describing is going to have issues with a lot more spells than just Simulacrum.

As for PCs, it's not really an issue due to the HP limit, as I explained above.
It could be insane. It could be just alright. I don't think it's good design.
All I can say is that I've seen it in play and haven't had any issues with it so far. Sometimes things play better/worse than they seem on paper.
 

DM-Rocco

Explorer
"Thou shall not balance features by making them annoying to use." Raw power tamed by annoying costs isn't great design. You can prepare it days in advance and then simply not make use of it until you really need it, at which point you trivialize what was supposed to be an epic boss fight. Or just copy an archer.



And now you get into a situation where a player can feel like you are targeting them and specifically designing encounters to shut down their toys. That's not a deal-breaker, but it is kind of annoying that a spell puts you in that awkward position.
Well, if a spellcaster casts a spell at me I try and counter it, that is no different that this. If someone summoned a monster that I didn't like I would either banish it or dispel it, again no different.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I've sent it used by a player who didn't abuse it.

At the mist basic level it's a free quicken cantrips spell. He used it mostly for firebolt iirc. So a high level wizard in effect cloning themselves gets to bin around 6-8 d8 or d10 damage at will or at least until it gets destroyed.

Wish abuse can be a thing. Simulacrum has always been difficult but at least it was half your level or so iirc.
 

Frozenstep

Explorer
Pacing is important to the game (or at least the threat of pacing, but that's tangential). If you allow the party a long rest after every encounter, for example, you have much bigger issues than Simulacrum, at much earlier levels than the spell is available.

IMO, a pacing issue is a pacing issue, not an issue specific to Simulacrum.

The problem is that it adds a new pacing issue that is unique to longer lasting spells like simulacrum and contingency. With the 6-8 encounter thing...you don't actually need to do 6-8 encounters every single day. You can have days that are busy in terms of combat, and then days of travel or investigating in a city or trying to get something political done. You can have your attrition-based survival happen every so often, and if they're back to back or a week apart.

But simulacrum breaks that dynamic.

I disagree that it is limited by annoyance. It is limited by resources: by default time and gold (or at 17+, alternately by the opportunity cost of your only 9th level spell slot).

And so the DM became scared about letting the characters have any free time or finding too much gold. Bob the warrior's dreams of rebuilding a ruined castle to use as a base were shattered because it would mean Tim the wizard would get too much use of one of his spells.

Sure, but the key here is while the Simulacrum survives. They are incredibly delicate.

Even taking an ultra tough 200 HP barbarian, you end up with a simulacrum with only 100 HP. That sounds like a lot until you realize that the wizard probably has around that many HP at those levels. But he's got rage, which means half damage, right? Technically, but only for a very limited number of fights since he can't recover uses.

Copying someone who is actually worth copying (such as the caster) is likely to result in a simulacrum with the durability of wet cardboard. That's before you take into account that it can be one shot by a third level spell (dispel magic).

Yes, simulacrum has weaknesses, but it's still an insanely good spell, and one of the reasons why is you can cast it on a day you have nothing else to do and retain the benefits until you need them. Just because a glass cannon has the weakness of being a glass cannon doesn't mean it can't be too strong of an option.

Also nothing says a simulacrum can't take rests and regain abilities...actually let's not get into how badly worded this spell is.

At the levels that Simulacrum becomes available at, if you can't use the high powered monsters available to you to reach the back line, you are going to have difficulty challenging the party even without simulacrum.

Yeah, and...? Having the simulacrum is still an insane advantage in any dangerous fight.

Which is completely within the DM's purview to veto. It's like asking the CEO of a Fortune 500 company to pose for you for 12 hours for something that you could use to then commit identity fraud against him or her. Good luck. IMC, if you're on incredibly good terms with them they might do you the solid - ONCE.

A DM who permits the kinds of shenanigans you're describing is going to have issues with a lot more spells than just Simulacrum.

See, depending on the situation, it's something that could easily be very reasonable without the DM realizing they were setting themselves up. Powerful wizard wants to help you defeat the evil warlock, but is busy holding a demonic portal closed with a spell that he can't move away from! Party asks if this is so important to him and he's not going anywhere, why not let them copy him? Not like he's going anywhere.

It just sets up a lot of situations where the DM has to be ready to justify a no. Or they could just not justify it and leave the players rolling their eyes. It's an annoying lesser of two evils, shutting down a good idea that makes sense rather then breaking things mechanically or forcing you to rebalance everything.

As for PCs, it's not really an issue due to the HP limit, as I explained above.

All I can say is that I've seen it in play and haven't had any issues with it so far. Sometimes things play better/worse than they seem on paper.

Look man, if it works well in your games, I'm honestly happy it does. But see, I'm not the kind of person that looks at a potential problem and decides "You know what? In 80% of these cases, this doesn't cause a noticeable issue and is kind of cool", I look at what bad cases there are, and what prevents a user from reaching them. And if it doesn't put those cases in hard-to-reach-and/or-dubious-practicality-at-that-point (such as taking 3 levels of sorc so you can twin simulacrum), then I see it as a problem.

Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Well, if a spellcaster casts a spell at me I try and counter it, that is no different that this. If someone summoned a monster that I didn't like I would either banish it or dispel it, again no different.

How do they know it can be dispelled so easily? Does every spellcaster in the world necessarily know what simulacrum even is? Do they even know it isn't real, given that it appears the same as the original? Maybe they'd end up dispelling the real one by accident? Or think it's simply a brother or something? Or you could have it wear different equipment to disguise itself as just another party member.

If you came into combat with two creatures, would your first reaction be to try and dispel one of them? For the DM they know it's a simulacrum, but for creatures in the world there's a leap in logic to be making and one not usually worth taking in the middle of dangerous combat.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Can I cast Wish to duplicate the Simulacrum spell and then have the simulacrum cast Wish to do a non-spell effect like give the party resistance and then the Simulacrum will take the hit for the 33% chance of neve being able to cast Wish again correct? I mean the logic seems solid unless I am missing something.

A DM's job is not to adhere as strictly as possible to RAW. His job is to create a fun and enjoyable game for his whole group. So then - why would a DM who wants to do that allow what you are describing?
 

Coroc

Hero
Guys, I think I have the proper solution for a fair backfire here:

All works like intended until the simulacrum wish backfires, in that the simulacrum can never cast wish again, but for the caster he can never cast simulacrum again !

How is that?


I mean per RAW a simulacrum can cast wish, but the simulacrum cannot do it anymore so it is no proper simulacrum so the simulacrum will not work for the caster anymore.

See, I can do sage advice also :p
 

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