D&D General Simulacrum and then True Polymorph

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Absolutely, the paladin is still a paladin. Otherwise, you could break your oaths every which way while polymorphed, but be treated as not having broken them. Whatever happens in dragon form stays in dragon form? That doesn't work for me.

However, as per the rules of true polymorph, you can only use the new form's abilities. So, no smiting as a dragon.

In the case of regular polymorph, it says that you can only use abilities that your new form would allow. So whether or not you can Giant Ape smite depends on the DM's ruling. I'd allow it though.
This line confuses me a bit: "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions."

Is this saying that you keep spellcasting if True Polymorph is used on you, but your form might make it impossible to cast spells, or is this saying that if polymorphed into a spellcasting creature you gain spellcasting?
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
This line confuses me a bit: "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions."

Is this saying that you keep spellcasting if True Polymorph is used on you, but your form might make it impossible to cast spells, or is this saying that if polymorphed into a spellcasting creature you gain spellcasting?
I agree that the wording isn't as clear as it could be, but my reading is that it's explicitly prohibiting the casting of spells. You still technically have any spellcasting you had, you just can't use it while polymorphed.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Absolutely, the paladin is still a paladin. Otherwise, you could break your oaths every which way while polymorphed, but be treated as not having broken them. Whatever happens in dragon form stays in dragon form? That doesn't work for me.

However, as per the rules of true polymorph, you can only use the new form's abilities. So, no smiting as a dragon.

In the case of regular polymorph, it says that you can only use abilities that your new form would allow. So whether or not you can Giant Ape smite depends on the DM's ruling. I'd allow it though.
I think that my ruling would be different but your table your rules.
 

Warforged DK

Explorer
If you, a 19th level Bard, make a simulacrum of yourself, I'd rule it as a copy of your character sheet, with no equipment, half your HP, and the same number of spells slots you have, minus the one used for Simulacrum. It can never learn new spells or create new spell slots while a simulacrum. It has no CR, no NPC creature stats. It's a copy of you, but obeys your wishes, per the simulacrum spell.
Now, to cast True Polymorph on the Simulacrum of you, the simulacrum could change into any CR 19 creature or lower. It gains those creature stats, losing the stats it had as a simulacrum and gaining those of the CR 19 or lower creature. It'd retain its alignment (yours) and personality, (also yours), effectively making it a copy of yourself. As Creature into Creature; nothing in the spell says it has to remain with your party or even be friendly to you, once True polymorphed. I'd even argue that you might have trouble maintaining concentration for the full hour.

As a DM, I'd probably treat the simulacrum as a creature that looks like you, acts like you, but has none of your memories. When True Polymorphed into another creature, it looks like you, shares your alignment, but may be a vastly different creature and freak out when waking up for the first time, with knowledge of magic, but not a sense of self. I'd make it an ethical issue, are you creating the next villain? How will it react to this? Whatever happens, the player isn't getting a 2nd character sheet to run.

The later arguments- Simulacrum of a Stone Giant- isn't possible. Simulacrum only works to create a beast or humanoid.
 

I agree that the wording isn't as clear as it could be, but my reading is that it's explicitly prohibiting the casting of spells. You still technically have any spellcasting you had, you just can't use it while polymorphed.
I don't reading it as prohibiting casting spells. You certainly can't use your original (Bard) spells or abilities But if you change into something that can cast spells (say innate casting) then why wouldn't you get that? It says you can't cast spells if the new form doesn't have the ability for speech or the hands to do so. Not that it can't cast spells at all.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I don't reading it as prohibiting casting spells. You certainly can't use your original (Bard) spells or abilities But if you change into something that can cast spells (say innate casting) then why wouldn't you get that? It says you can't cast spells if the new form doesn't have the ability for speech or the hands to do so. Not that it can't cast spells at all.
I read it as:

1. Can't speak.
2. Can't cast spells.
3. Can't take any other action that requires hands or speech.

But like I said, the language isn't as clear as it could be, so you could read it as:

... can't cast spells... that require hands or speech.

Which would support your ruling.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
So I guess the question is, if a spellcaster is True Polymorphed into something that can speak and can make somatic gestures, are they allowed to cast spells?

Or is it saying that if a Rogue is True Polymorphed into a creature with Innate Spellcasting, they can use that ability?
 


So here's the pertanent text from Roll20:
The creature is limited in the ACTIONS it can perform by the Nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast Spells, or take any other Action that requires hands or Speech unless its new form is capable of such ACTIONS.
That last part, in bold is critical. So if you transform into an elf, elves can cast spells (they have hands and can speak) so I would say they can. Maybe that part is from an errata that your print version doesn't have? Or do we just read it that differently?
 

"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions." If you polymorph a bard into a snake, you couldn't cast spells with somatic components. But if you were polymorphed into a goblin, which can speak and has hands, no limits on using those bard spells.
 

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