D&D General Simulacrum and then True Polymorph

Winterhaven

Villager
I'm wondering what would happen if I made a simulacrum and then cast true polymorph on it.
I'm a 19th lvl bard with wish, so the simulacrum would be 19th level right(?) then I cast true polymorph of it and keep it for over an hour. Now my simulacrum is an archmage. Its a 12th level cr so I should be fine right?

Now what? Can he learn new spells that since he should true 18th wizard, Is he still a simulacrum or just a friend? If he just a friend can I do it again?

And just because, what happens if I use my wish to cast Find Greater Steed. I summon a spirit that assume the form of a loyal mount. cr 5. Can I cast turn polymorph to turn him into a loyal servant? A loyal hill giant. cr 5.

Just because I could not sleep last night and think of what I could do now that I have wish.
 

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Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
According to Jeremy Crawford, they'd still obey you after being transformed, although mechanics past that are hard to say how it works.

Edit: They probably couldn't learn more spells or recover spell slots still, since the Simulacrum restrictions should still be active, at least.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
First, welcome to the forum!

Interesting question. I'll quote the spells for reference:

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I'm wondering what would happen if I made a simulacrum and then cast true polymorph on it.
It would really depend on the DM since 5E is all about "rulings" instead of rules.

I would not allow it since the Simulacrum is part creature/part illusion. While Simulacrum does say "otherwise be affected as a normal creature," it is not a creature, which is the requirement for True Polymorph. Additionally, since the Simulacrum is ice/snow, it is partially an object, but obviously a magical object, so True Polymorph would not work in that way, either.

Now, if a DM did rule it was possible, as a player I wouldn't dispute it either. So, I'll respond as if it was ruled to be possible:

I'm a 19th lvl bard with wish, so the simulacrum would be 19th level right(?)
Correct. Simulacrum states "Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates."

then I cast true polymorph of it and keep it for over an hour. Now my simulacrum is an archmage. Its a 12th level cr so I should be fine right?
No, it would not be an archmage. It would be a 19th level bard--assuming you used the wish to make a Simulacrum of yourself.

Now what? Can he learn new spells that since he should true 18th wizard,
Again, I would rule "No" because even with True Polymorph allowed, it states "It retains its alignment and personality." Simulacrum's cannot learn or advance or replenish spells, so it still wouldn't be able to IMO.

Is he still a simulacrum or just a friend? If he just a friend can I do it again?
This is more along the lines of using True Polymorph to change an object into a creature. Once permanent, "you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."

Whether or not you could then do it again would depend on how the DM has it react.

It's an interesting concept...
 

Well, after you True Polymorph something, is it still what it was before? i.e. it still has it's knowledge and personality, but does it have any of it's traits? TP says it does not have any of it's abilities, so why would it have the restrictions of it's previous being? So, is a TP'd Sim still a sim or is it now only what it has been TP'd into?
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
It's up to the DM, but I rule that NPC stat blocks like the Archmage aren't creatures in terms of a spell like True Polymorph. That is to say, if you tried to polymorph someone into a human Archmage, you'd end up with a basic human (not an Archmage). Similarly, you can polymorph someone into a Stone Giant, but not Steve the Stone Giant (who may or may not have his own unique abilities).

I would allow True Polymorph to polymorph your simulacrum into something valid (like a Stone Giant), however the simulacrum limitations would still apply (no recovery of hp or other resources). If you want your Stone Giant simulacrum to recover HP, True Polymorph it again.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Well, after you True Polymorph something, is it still what it was before? i.e. it still has it's knowledge and personality, but does it have any of it's traits? TP says it does not have any of it's abilities, so why would it have the restrictions of it's previous being? So, is a TP'd Sim still a sim or is it now only what it has been TP'd into?
In my book you get a creature of the type polymorphed into. So the Simulacra become a human say because that is what they were polymorphed into a bog standard human.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
It's up to the DM, but I rule that NPC stat blocks like the Archmage aren't creatures in terms of a spell like True Polymorph. That is to say, if you tried to polymorph someone into a human Archmage, you'd end up with a basic human (not an Archmage). Similarly, you can polymorph someone into a Stone Giant, but not Steve the Stone Giant (who may or may not have his own unique abilities).

I would allow True Polymorph to polymorph your simulacrum into something valid (like a Stone Giant), however the simulacrum limitations would still apply (no recovery of hp or other resources). If you want your Stone Giant simulacrum to recover HP, True Polymorph it again.
I would not apply the simulacrum limitations nor give anyof the bennies either. If a Stone giant then it is a bog standard stone giant, not as you say, Steve the Stone Giant. It behave like a stone giant unless it drops to 0hp.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I would not apply the simulacrum limitations nor give anyof the bennies either. If a Stone giant then it is a bog standard stone giant, not as you say, Steve the Stone Giant. It behave like a stone giant unless it drops to 0hp.
IMO, the simulacrum qualities are the result of the spell that created it, rather than its creature type (which would be that of the individual it was created from). Therefore, it retains any properties of a simulacrum regardless of the form it is changed into.

It's similar to if you summon a monster and then true polymorph it into something else. IMO, it remains a summoned creature and would be treated as such by any effects that affect summoned creatures.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
IMO, the simulacrum qualities are the result of the spell that created it, rather than its creature type (which would be that of the individual it was created from). Therefore, it retains any properties of a simulacrum regardless of the form it is changed into.

It's similar to if you summon a monster and then true polymorph it into something else. IMO, it remains a summoned creature and would be treated as such by any effects that affect summoned creatures.
Does this mean that a paladin polymorphed into a dragon is also still a paladin?

As to your point, then I would regard that the simulacrum is a object for the purposes of polymorph. I want polymoph to change a thing into another thing and not retain or inherit the properties of the original for the duration of the polymorph. Otherwise I get to deal with Giant Apes with Paladin smites and the like and I am not putting up with that.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Does this mean that a paladin polymorphed into a dragon is also still a paladin?

As to your point, then I would regard that the simulacrum is a object for the purposes of polymorph. I want polymoph to change a thing into another thing and not retain or inherit the properties of the original for the duration of the polymorph. Otherwise I get to deal with Giant Apes with Paladin smites and the like and I am not putting up with that.
Absolutely, the paladin is still a paladin. Otherwise, you could break your oaths every which way while polymorphed, but be treated as not having broken them. Whatever happens in dragon form stays in dragon form? That doesn't work for me.

However, as per the rules of true polymorph, you can only use the new form's abilities. So, no smiting as a dragon.

In the case of regular polymorph, it says that you can only use abilities that your new form would allow. So whether or not you can Giant Ape smite depends on the DM's ruling. I'd allow it though.
 

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