Wish vs Miracle

[Nail]

Miracles are, however, and that's exactly how I use this spell. You ask your deity to perform a Miracle. You better do not do this, unless it's really needed. It should be a rare spell to be used in dire circumstances, not the answer to your daily problems.

I strongly disagree.

By the time you are a Clr 17, big things are happening, things your diety (or calling, if no diety) will care about personally. There should be no problem using Miracle on a daily basis (at least the no XP version).

Besides, it's a 9th level spell, and is balanced with respect to other 9th level spells. This isn't peon magic, kids.

But I recognize YMMV.

 

[RangerWickett]

I was recently designing a 36th level PC for a friend's first attempt at running an epic-level one-shot.

I considered making a cleric with a ton of higher-level spell slots, until I had access to 17th level spells, at which point I would take Innate Spell (miracle). A miracle per round, at will. I would then proceed to fix the world.

 

[marune]

I strongly disagree.

By the time you are a Clr 17, big things are happening, things your diety (or calling, if no diety) will care about personally. There should be no problem using Miracle on a daily basis (at least the no XP version).

Ok and if I agree with you; don't you feel that Wizards/Sorcerers who can't use Wish for duplicating spells is a problem vs the cleric that can ?

 

[Jack Simth]

Yeah. Fun combo. A Wizard with that one non-epic feat that puts Clerical domain spells on his class list (with caveats) can do so as well.

 

[Thanee]

Here's a Wish/Miracle question.

If you buy/scribe a scroll of Miracle that DOESN'T include the price for the 5,000xp cost, can you cast the Miracle WITH the 5,000xp by dropping in your own XP later as the scroll user?

Pretty sure, that you cannot. XP components have to be paid for by the creator of a magic item.

Bye
Thanee

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, aren't scrolls usually a special-case as spell-completion items? Can you cast Protection from Energy from a scroll and choose the energy type or do you buy a scroll of Protection from Energy (Cold)?

--fje

 

[frankthedm]

Well, aren't scrolls usually a special-case as spell-completion items? Can you cast Protection from Energy from a scroll and choose the energy type or do you buy a scroll of Protection from Energy (Cold)?

Not the same thing. Material& XP Components have to be provided when making the scroll. The scroll's user can choose affects the scroll spell has choices for {range, targets, creature summoned}. Now a potion, yes the creator makes all choices for those when created. It is “Resist energy (type) 10 (potion)” 300 gp, Not “Resist energy (type that would benefit the drinker most at the time of drinking) 10 (potion)” 300 gp

CREATING SCROLLS
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster.

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.

Item Creation Feat Required: Scribe Scroll.

 

[Thanee]

As frank said, it's something different. Components have to be provided before the spell is even cast (and in case of magic items, have already been used when making the item; you don't need any spell components when activating the item later), while choices about the spell's effect are made during the spellcasting or activation of the item itself.

Bye
Thanee

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

But that's the issue I'm addressing, the XP component of Miracle, unlike Wish, is a choice made during/at the time of casting the spell. You can choose to cast Miracle and ask for a 6th level Wizard spell and not pay any XP cost.

It should be possible to at least create a scroll of Miracle that doesn't include the XP component, right?

Actually, looking at the wording on the table where both Wish and Miracle scrolls are listed out at 28k ...

Wish says:

Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP.

Miracle says:

Assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost.

So since the powerful request is "assumed", that suggests that it need not always be the case that scrolls of Miracle include the 5,000xp price, no?

It's something that came up recently.

--fje

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, you can determine those choices when you make the item.

You should be able to make a scroll of Miracle with no XP cost, but it can only be used in a way, that does not cost any XP then.

Basically, you set the limit of what the scroll can do when it is created (look at the scroll of Permanency for another example; the one in the DMG is listed with a 2,000 XP reserve, anything up to that point it can do, but nothing more).

Bye
Thanee